Mark and Dami's little experiment

[DimensionWarped]

Like it has been said... this is a very early build. They don't exactly have fulltime animators and shit working on this.

[Damizean]

Plus, MistaED and Streak did more than enough just helping us

[Quexinos]

Hey, y'all. Been a long time since I posted here.

This is one hell of an engine you guys have here. It took me a while to get used to the configuration and hope it's adjustable later on, but once I got the hang of it I couldn't stop playing. I'm very excited about it and hope it doesn't end up being forgotten like most great Sonic projects. This is how 3D Sonic SHOULD be done.

If there's anything I can do to help out, let me know.

This just may restore my faith in the Sonic community.

[DimensionWarped]

Again, I'll ask people to refrain from treating this engine like a full blown game right now. It is not yet comparable in any context to a full blown commercial title, regardless of whether or not that commercial title is a recent 3D Sonic game.

Chances are, this engine will barely be recognizable by the time everything is in place.

[Spike]

This is how 3D Sonic SHOULD be done.

How in the hell can people keep saying this? It's just a basic run and jump engine as of now. You cannot possibly call this better than Sega's work yet.

The only thing I can say about this that Sega didn't do is keep the oldschool Sonic charm.

[VectorSatyr]

The only thing I can say about this that Sega didn't do is keep the oldschool Sonic charm.

Apparently, that's all anybody cares about right now... =/

[Quexinos]

well okay let me say this

When I envisioned 3D sonic, I saw something very similar to this engine. The one thing I always wanted was two cameras. One that would be right behind Sonic so that you'd literally go through the loops with him and be upside down when he is, and the other is basically what their other camera does. Only of course it'd follow Sonic more closely.

So this is like, they went into my head and got the ideas or something. The concept is always what I imagined 3D Sonic to be like. I'm very excited about this. I can't wait to see a finished product.

[Khorney]

i actually quite like the new designs for the 3D games (moreso than the 2D probably), but the shoddiness of implementation in the later editions can obscure them somewhat, which the, perhaps justified, shameless 3D hatewagons tend to do.

retro is also good though =D the ball jump from sonic adventure is a nice touch

[Aerosol]

I thought I was the only one that preferred the new designs for 3D implementations. I see this engine as a way to fix the bugginess problems of the engines that Sonic Team have offered as of late, as opposed to being a potentially better overall design for a sonic 3d engine. I mean, if Sonic Team took this engine and used it as an example, Sonic Adventure 2 could've been so much more fun. Running down the building (with full control) with camera 2 in City Escape sounds like a good idea.

[Khorney]

SA2 is the least of my worries in terms of the quality of the 3D series, the later entries were much worse. to be honest automatic loop control (kind of alluded to with your building run, and IIRC it's been mentioned in one of DW's 'this is how it should have been done' threads) was probably the best idea, since now these guys have got to come up with a way that makes manual control relevant (ie, not just jumping through the gap and skipping it entirely), look good (probably not by having huge walls going around the inside =/) and not annoying (by falling off the sides all the time).

[Quexinos]

FYI, I don't mind the new designs of the character, or at least I didn't until Sonic was apparently taller than I was... that... that's no good.

and when I play a Sonic game, that's what I want to do. PLAY. I don't want to just press forward and see some neato effects. I want to actually PLAY the game.

[kirbyhi5]

FYI, I don't mind the new designs of the character, or at least I didn't until Sonic was apparently taller than I was... that... that's no good.

and when I play a Sonic game, that's what I want to do. PLAY. I don't want to just press forward and see some neato effects. I want to actually PLAY the game.

But..Even if you were going full speed with a programmed loop..That's all you'd be doing..Going forward..It would actually be much harder, because you would have to be going full speed, or you would probably always fall off and die. You have to take into consideration not if they could program it or not, but if it was necessary. And uh, you're still playing the game, just not when running on a loop. Then again, I didn't like any of the 3-D sonic games past SA2.

I personally hate the fat sonic. The /Sa/SA2 sonic's felt like I was playing a much older mature sonic. Of course, that doesn't mean Dami's & Marks sonic isn't good. Their sonic 3-d model looks excellent.

[Kain]

Ever notice how loops tend to be towards the beginning of classic Sonic games (not true everywhere, but the point is they rarely add to the actual level design, chemical plant zone not withstanding)? Loops are more symbolic than anything else. They represent the dynamic qualities of their engine. When you rail the loop-de-loops, you make their presence hollow. And with just cause, because generally their (3D Sonic games) actual 360 degree capabilities ain't so hot. At least at the speeds they run them at.

Also, mature Sonic is a stupid-head. He's certainly more a kid than classic Sonic who is more of a cartoon.

Edit: I forgot. Your point is kind of contradicted by the fact that controlling Sonic in a loop in this engine demo is an issue.

[BlazeHedgehog]

I personally hate the fat sonic. The /Sa/SA2 sonic's felt like I was playing a much older mature sonic.

But Sonic isn't mature. His entire character is that he's immature, impatient and rude - but in a pinch, he pulls together and defends his friends at all costs. In the manuals for the classic Sonic games (at least the Japanese ones; which are considered canon by most), Sonic was always described as having a devil-may-care attitude but a very strong sense of justice.

As of Sonic Adventure, that was continually muted until he became more or less a speedy superhero who "loves adventure". Sonic plots continually grew darker; in contrast to the fact that Sonic is a blue cartoon hedgehog, stuff like Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow the Hedgehog, and Sonic 2k6 look damned silly with all their maturity and darker thematics. Sonic looks like a freakish mutant standing next to a human character.

I miss classic Sonic, when all you needed to convey a character's attitude was a simple wave of the finger and and "Jeeze, What's taking you so long?" waiting animation.

[ClassicSonicRules]

But Sonic isn't mature. His entire character is that he's immature, impatient and rude - but in a pinch, he pulls together and defends his friends at all costs. In the manuals for the classic Sonic games (at least the Japanese ones; which are considered canon by most), Sonic was always described as having a devil-may-care attitude but a very strong sense of justice.

As of Sonic Adventure, that was continually muted until he became more or less a speedy superhero who "loves adventure". Sonic plots continually grew darker; in contrast to the fact that Sonic is a blue cartoon hedgehog, stuff like Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow the Hedgehog, and Sonic 2k6 look damned silly with all their maturity and darker thematics. Sonic looks like a freakish mutant standing next to a human character.

I miss classic Sonic, when all you needed to convey a character's attitude was a simple wave of the finger and and "Jeeze, What's taking you so long?" waiting animation.

The truth has been spoken. There is nothing uber-mature about a blue, speedy hedgehog. He never has been and never will be. Anyone who disagrees can go and play Final Fantasy VII, GTA, or whatever. (But then again, can any video game be classified as mature? I mean that are technically toys...)

[Khorney]

i just like the look, not necessary the speech or whatever. but it's probably best not to turn this into an all out argument. that was just a throw-away comment.

the main point was about how they are going todo loops, and , while critised, the on-rails loop system isn't that bad considering the technical and visual implications of making a fully functional loop in 3D. I mean, how much control is removed?In the 2D, all you do is hold right untill you go such a speed at which you are able to pass through the loop, and then continue to hold right to finish. In the 3D (in SA2 at least, can't remember off the top of my head the rest), all that is remove in the necessity for building up speed inorder to pass through the loop. although looking slightly artificial, not that much control is lost in comparison to the 2D version. in fact, the addition of control, as demonstrated by this tech demo, is to the detrement to the playing experience, surely making it a moot point?

[BlazeHedgehog]

I can see Khorney's point, there.

[Mark the Echidna]

the main point was about how they are going todo loops, and , while critised, the on-rails loop system isn't that bad considering the technical and visual implications of making a fully functional loop in 3D. I mean, how much control is removed?In the 2D, all you do is hold right untill you go such a speed at which you are able to pass through the loop, and then continue to hold right to finish. In the 3D (in SA2 at least, can't remember off the top of my head the rest), all that is remove in the necessity for building up speed inorder to pass through the loop. although looking slightly artificial, not that much control is lost in comparison to the 2D version. in fact, the addition of control, as demonstrated by this tech demo, is to the detrement to the playing experience, surely making it a moot point?

I can also see your point Khorney, and I do agree that free 3D loops are somewhat harder to control. The whole game will be harder to control, because obviously it is in 3D, but not that harder.

You can't keep the degree of freedom of the original Sonic games in 3D without a bit of added difficulty. But it's pretty much a matter of getting used to the new experience. I believe it is somewhat like on Portal, when you first get through a portal from the wall and end up on the ground and you go all: "WTF!?" But with time you get used to it, and start seeing it as something natural to the gameplay.

The added difficulty IS part of the experience, and I think it's totally worth the price. If you start thinking about it, 3D opens a whole lot of sequence breaking possibility, as long as you can get enough momentum. I'm pretty sure when (if?) this game gets done we'll see a lot of people doing all kinds of amazing things at the levels. Things they weren't intended for.

And you shouldn't expect it not to be challenging. The intended audience is Sonic fans who grew playing Sonic as kids, and now are adults or teens. If you can't expect them to keep up with the increased difficulty, if you can't expect them to learn new abilities to help them overcome new challenges, just like they did 15 years ago, then there's no more need for Sonic the Hedgehog.

The whole point of adding the WASD + Mouse control was actually to compensate for the control difficulty, in a way that doesn't feel completely unnatural. At least for me, it's the best way of playing a game like Sonic in 3D. But that's probably because I got used to playing SRB2 with it. I think it's totally reasonable for people to complain about the controls because they don't feel comfortable with them. But I think comments like "the control shouldn't be like this because Sonic is not counter-strike" are totally stupid.

[Khorney]

hmm, i see what you mean by adding new challenges, but surely diffculty of control (the bane of the newest iterations) is going to be to the annoyance of the player as opposed to creating genuine challenge? what happens if the fall off? the stop and go round the loop? fall into an ultimate death trap of doom (don't get me started =P)? go back and try the loop again? it seems like it just breaks the pace of the game. Also, you're probably aware, but i'm not trying to be aggressive or putting down your ideas, just trying to stimulate the grey matter into some interesting discussion.

and this is only the discussion of loops, which as kain mentioned, very rarely served as a gameplay gimmick, more as eye candy to show off the engines capabilities. the half pipes you use could probably easily serve the same purpose and proove as a gameplay challenge aswell, but requiring much more interaction from the player on a level unavailble to the 2D games. Can you think of many examples of gimmicks in the 3D games which couldn't be transffered to the 2D games without breaking the control? grinding? the down building run from SA1? with the half pipe, this has to function as a preset event in 2D, whereas in 3D you can having him moving up down left and right while having to maintain momentum in order not to fall down if the floor is removed. I suppose it comes down to the use of the extra space allowed by 3D, i found this was best exploited in the treasure hunting levels and the boss battles. which is another interesting point, lineararity of the levels. but i can't be arsed to write about that now =P

also concerning control schemes, the setup at the moment just about works, but if you start having fast moving, quick reaction levels i can see it falling apart quickly. dual analogues are much more intuitive to 3rd person platform where precision movement is required, with precise direction and speed control. the mouse is sufficient for camera (abliet with adjusting), but for movement WASD is restrictive at best. Although, i do realise this still extremely early and subject to change and refinement. one interesting thing to look up may be the use of the mouse wheel for speed, for those who are analogue deficient. this was used in splinter cell and worked pretty well, but also, a slow moving, carefully planned stealth game isn't exactly a good basis for a fast moving platformer

[The ParadoxX]

Mark, I have to agree with Khorney there are some things in 2D that need some adaptation for 3D... The challenge of the loop in 2D was that you need some speed pass through it, and if the speed is not enough you fall from it. But in 3D you can fall from the loop if you don't turn a bit to follow the loop's path and the more speed the more difficult it is to do, and this is not chalenging, it's anoying so if sonic followed a straight line in the loop, but applied those rules from 2D (one thing that is lacking in the adventure series) the loop would be equally fun without being anoying.

Don't take it as we're complaining too much but this project is so brilliant that me (and I guess Khorney, and everyone who commented) want to see it working as good as possible.

[Mark the Echidna]

Oh, by no means I did take it as someone being aggressive or anything. I'm really sorry if I did make it sound like that, I did write that text in a hurry.

Anyway, much like any other thing this should be a matter of choice. We can probably add some kind of option such as "Loop funnels", in the same way we're planning on adding an automatic camera.

But I really believe that a 3D Sonic is one of the kind of games that will force new abilities to be learned.

[Aerosol]

well...I'd imagine that ingame loops would be far larger than the ones this engine is showing. Loops in 3D sonic games are generally large. I think it'd be pretty sufficient to just make the "behind sonic" camera zoom out a bit, so players can see where they're going a little better.

[Quexinos]

The added difficulty IS part of the experience, and I think it's totally worth the price. If you start thinking about it, 3D opens a whole lot of sequence breaking possibility, as long as you can get enough momentum. I'm pretty sure when (if?) this game gets done we'll see a lot of people doing all kinds of amazing things at the levels. Things they weren't intended for.

I agree with this completely. This is what I fully expected from 3D Sonic. The loops will take a little getting used to, but they did in the original too. It's just different. In the 2D games, you had to get used to building up enough speed. And I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone who isn't used to Sonic trying to jump through the loops. I remember a friend of mine who barely played video games trying to do that and I had to tell her countless times not to jump, but to just run through.

But in 3D you can fall from the loop if you don't turn a bit to follow the loop's path and the more speed the more difficult it is to do, and this is not chalenging, it's anoying so if sonic followed a straight line in the loop, but applied those rules from 2D (one thing that is lacking in the adventure series) the loop would be equally fun without being anoying.

Well personally I think the "behind Sonic" camera fixes this completely. I do see what you're saying, but I'd rather have total control then no control at all. I think it'd also help if the loops were bigger because the change in the path would be harder to notice... so basically what Aerosol said

[BlazeHedgehog]

Allow me to throw my two cents in:

New challenges are fine. However, something you need to think about as a developer is being user-friendly, too. Staying in a loop in the current incarnation of the engine feels almost like random chance. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and the slightest tweak to the character's direction while entering (or while inside) of the loop is usually enough to throw you out.

The game needs to be a smooth experience.

As long as the loops aren't totally, 100% scripted (as in you're basically watching a short cutscene you can't control)... a method to make sure the player stays on the loop is fine. I mean, when you think about it, that's what making the loop concave would've done anyways - funnel the player down to the center of the loop so he would stay on it.

I like the controls as they are right now, but you guys need to fix the mouse sensitivity. It accelerates way too fast and doesn't detect slight movements very well.

[Jsonic]

On the subject of sonic's model and animations, I just what to ask if anyone found a way to import the sonic classic biped rig that I made? also, maybe I could help with animations at some point down the road? I still have some of the animations I used to render the model to show the rigging I did when I first rigged it.

I made these when I first rigged the model.

Back on topic (if that was considered off topic, I don't really know...), The engine looks great to me! I haven't tried it yet but I'm sure it'll be fun.