A fun little analysis game of sorts...

[Serephim]

And Seraph, Sonic Rush really isn't that great. As I said, it is still lacking stuff at fundamental levels that the classic Sonic games have and the current Sonic games show no prospect of ever gaining.

It so was, but at the same time they were on the right track for a bit.

It was a huge improvement over the Advance series, and it DID actully have a few cool gimmicks. It lacked INTERACTIVE gimmicks, but it was still pretty fun. Even with the dash, the game's speed and level design is stable enough to make sure while your tricking through hte air, you dont end up off a cliff. (happened a few times, but not too many compared to frigging SADV2-3.)

Sonic and the Secret Rings is doing fine, IMO. From some better quality videos, the graphics are pretty spiffy.

I disagree with DW on this game. I think this one will be a judgement on Sonic Team messing up the title or not.

Although the rail movement messes up tons of things (not being able to correctly move backwards is the ONLY thing that turns me off this title), it also solves plenty of problems. Although i DOUBT its going to be as great as it should, from the levels ive been seeing. They arnt taking advantage of the fact that they can add as many corkscrews, loops, paths, slopes, ramps, and gimmicks as they can without any engine ____ups, but the first 2 levels theyve shown only seem to take advantage of a few path ideas and creativity in environment interaction.

Although Sonic Team stressed this is supposed to be a full blown game for the Wii and not a stupid "spinoff" (claimed theve been working on the title for 2 years, how much of that is actual development is beyond me) I think they might be able to make this work.

And ive also been stressing what scatta is saying too. Sonic 360 should have been a clean slate. Sonic and Tails go to fight robotnick, Knuckles gets in the way and later on helps the team, Amy gets stolen, METAL SONIC! , Sonic and Tails go through stages until they meet with Robotnick and blow up the OMGDEATHEGG before he escapes..

And if you just happened to cheat your way through the stages by getting all 7 Chaos emeralds (which implies you can go super sonic ahead of time), you can use the power to completely destroy his plans.

The storylines of new dont let sonic transfrom mid-game because im sure they think it would "ruin" the "climatic" ending to the final story, like we havent guessed he was going to transform at the end anyway.

Either that, or being super sonic now would just expose every collision issue ever.

[Ligar]

Ice Cap was redone for SA, and there's a snow level in Next. In Wave Ocean you can run over water, however, I was watching a video jacked off of Sega's FTP and some guy died like 2 times in a row in that segment for no apparent reason. Not only was Sonic not moving as fast as you think it'd be requird to run across water, but he wasn't actually running- he was sliding along the water. That would create drag more than anything else (maybe why they have him moving so slow?). The way the player died made little sense. He was sliding along the water, they went around a bend at he hit the wall. He instantly sinks. Death. I guess touching the side of a wall (not running head-on into it, just grazing it) causes you to completely lose all momentum in less than a second. The second time makes even less, he's going around this same bend and gets close to the wall, from what I saw he didn't even graze it or anything, suddenly he's thrown downwards. Death. ::shrug::

To me that seems pretty realistic. Yeah, he's skidding and not running, thats a downer but the whole touching and grazing the wall makes it seem like there's a sense of realism in that kind of defying feat.

I mean, in order for a human being to slide across the water, that takes intense speed. As in Speed boat, speed. Which is impossible any other way. (to my knowledge anyways.) But you can just think that if Sonic didn't lose momentum when hitting/grazing the wall and sinking, well that wouldn't seem right. What I'm saying is that it gives Sonic a feel of the consequence of the laws of physics and nature.

[Rael0505]

I'm pretty sure speed boats float because they're less dense than water. It doesn't have to do with speed.

Ever been on a cruise ship? They're not exactly fast, but they float just fine.

[Ligar]

Yeah but, apparently Sonic hasn't been water friendly over the years.

So I don't think floating is one of his specialties

[Koray]

The reason boats float is because they displace as much water as they themselves weigh. The outward pressure of the water becomes equal to the downward pressure of the boat and the boat floats. Basically the water pushes up as hard as the boat pushes down, and you have float.

[Rael0505]

So why does a boat push as hard as the water pushes and not a blue hedgehog? It's because Sonic is denser than the water, right?

[Koray]

..No. It's because sonic's shoes aren't wide enough to displace water equal to his total weight.

Edit for posterity: Given the next-gen estimate of 70 pounds for sonic, each shoe would have to be 6.6ft across for him to float.

Edit for factuality: You could reduce the required surface area of each shoe by giving the shoes a hull (the triangle part of the boat below the water). But I won't do the math for this as the angle of the hull (not to mention the weight added to the shoe) and therefore the displacement can vary greatly.

[Rael0505]

Oh.

...I knew that.

[1LT Worm]

Fill a bowl of water.

Drop a penny in. It does not float.

Drop in a piece of paper. It will float.

Home experiments FTW.

[TRD]

Plus you know, sonic isn't exactly David Hasselholf when it comes to swimming. *plays the Labyrinth Zone song on laptop*

[Koray]

Better yet, place one square inch of paper on top of the water, and place the penny on that.

Assuming that the water doesn't dissolve the paper (use computer paper!), it should float. Might give you more insight into my displacement post.

[1LT Worm]

It's after midnight, dude. My brain shut off about four hours ago.

[Koray]

Well.. Water is about .44psi. A penny is about 2.35g. This is about 0.005lb.

So, you only need one inch of displacement. So one penny on one inch of paper should work.

[Ligar]

Did I turned this into a physics lesson?? O_o

[Koray]

Okay it doesn't actually work with paper. The paper absorbs too much water, increasing the weight and ruining any kind of surface tension.

A piece of thin laminate plastic did the trick, but I made it about 1.3 inches to account for the added weight of the plastic. I probably didn't need to, but eh.

[Asuma]

..No. It's because sonic's shoes aren't wide enough to displace water equal to his total weight.

Edit for posterity: Given the next-gen estimate of 70 pounds for sonic, each shoe would have to be 6.6ft across for him to float.

Edit for factuality: You could reduce the required surface area of each shoe by giving the shoes a hull (the triangle part of the boat below the water). But I won't do the math for this as the angle of the hull (not to mention the weight added to the shoe) and therefore the displacement can vary greatly.

So, given the fact that Sonic, Superman, and The Flash can run on top of water due to their speed, has nothing to do with physics, right?

[DimensionWarped]

No, thats not true. Its essentially the same concept as hydroplaning / hydrofoils.

EDIT:

Also, there is a famous reptile/amphibian thing that can run across water while traveling at a certain speed but will sink if it stops moving.

[Koray]

If a person could run fast enough, a la The Flash et al, they could run on water.

The foot pushes down into the water, but due to surface tension, it doesn't break the surface just yet. It is encapsulated by air. The foot then breaks the air bubble and pushes forward to propel itself.

You would have to be very fast. Very very fast, proportionally to your weight.

It's not quite like a hydrofoil, in that a hydrofoil requires lift equal to the sum of the boats weight and cargo.

[tentril]

That is how the Jesus Lizard runs on water. Not hydroplaning, but stepping on air bubbles as Koray explained. I saw it on TV so its legit. Trust me.

[Guest Shadix]

That is how the Jesus Lizard runs on water. Not hydroplaning, but stepping on air bubbles as Koray explained. I saw it on TV so its legit. Trust me.

That is some scary logic.

[tentril]

It was supposed to be a joke, but sarcasm doesn't come across well on the internet.

[Ligar]

lol, Thats funny! TV is the king of lies. We all know that

[Aerosol]

uh yea. I've always known it had something to do with surface tension. a hunch

but maybe when he's in a ball he's hydroplaning hmm?

[Blue Frenzy]

I will recall to the rolling reason. Not only rolling is what is affected. Also normal moving is affected by this change. In sonic you have slopes and you can play with them. Now a slopes are just another kind of decoration. I remember that in 2D games that jump angle changes depending of the floor you are. Sonic also acelerate and decelerate depending of the angle. Some levels were based on slopes, like marble garden. Now that is lost. Before you had a 360 degrees enviroment and each angle had a different result for your moves and jumps. Now, you have a 3d 360º enviroment, but each angle works the same.

The best way tho fix this is to make a 2D sonic game with 3D levels, but movin in 2D. Pretty much like the sonic game for PSP, but with a full 2D engine. Also, a 3D game like tony hawk series would work too. Slopes and halfpipes works amazingly great on that game, and adding loops should be easy as hell. also those levels are open, so there is no feel of "pathway" levels.

[Aaron C-T]

Link: But see it looked like a glitch had occured, not like they were trying to be realistic. And if you really want to think about it why would they have Sonic sliding slowly across the water if they wanted it to be realistic? For him to actually sink realistically he would have to well.. sink. That didn't happen. One second he was sliding on water the next second the camera titled down and he was somehow way below the surface of the water. Not at all realistic. More like glitchy.

Shadix: Err.. given that we're talking about a lizard here, I'm going to assume that he was probably watch something along the lines of the Discovery or Animal Planet channels. So, assuming it was one of those channel-types.. I highly doubt that's "scary logic at all." It's most likely legit afterall.

.. I suddenly feel the need to just go running as fast as possible into a body of water.