A fun little analysis game of sorts...

[DimensionWarped]

Midi, I hate to break this to you, but in that post, you are about a hundred times guiltier of the crime you just hit someone on.

And you are thinking too small fry. Elemental shield... while cool... are nowhere near the heart of the game. Its just a spiffy toy. Shadow has them and it didn't really change much.

[Aaron C-T]

"Theres a level trap in almost every act that does that to me because im mindlessly boosting and tricking off everything i can see."

And there's my point. Sonic games were never abount mindlessly blazing through a level. Sonic Rush is a fun game, I suppose. I quite like it- yet it's not a Sonic game. It's just not. It's fun for a new game, but it's not a great Sonic game.

"And omg, the final song for the game sounds like a gospel track or something. It annoyed me."

Haven't bothered to beat the game yet, but if the final song is the one with the lyrics "when I was down, you pick me up" then guess what? It is a gospel song. I've heard it several times in church. No, I don't know why it's been remixed for something so random.

"Whoever worked on Sonic Rush need to do it again."

Meh. I'd rather a return to older-style gameplay with a Klonoa look.

DW: I was under the impression that he mean they needed those back in addition to decent Sonic gameplay.

Midi: As DW once pointed out, the fire shield has no purpose now due to the homing attack. Also, the electric shiels screws up Light Speed Dash.

[MidimanNull]

They add a subtle feature to the game. The fire shield let you avoid particles shot by badniks, and destroy rocks when you use its jump action, the water/bubble shield let you breathe underwater, as well as bounce off the ground ( when combined with hitting a badnik, let you jump at least 2x higher ), and the electric shield automatically brought rings your way, and let you double jump.

These can all be strategically placed near places you might use them, for example..

Hydrocity Act 1, the bubble shield was placed near the first broken wall, so that you can survive the underwater part of that stage, since it was so complicated.

Lava Reef Act 2, the fire shield let you dodge all the flamethrowers and pits in the stage.

Edit: I feel stupid now that scatta posted after me.

[Pheonix Gamma]

It would probably help if... you know... they actually tried. What they did with Sonic Adventure and beyond though was simply tweak the controls for Sonic 3D Blast.

So, I figure its the fault of the coordinate axis of the controller.

You have all 360 degrees controlled by one axis in the 2D games and you have up and down with... up and down. The logical solution is to do what they did with Mario. Get a crouch button.

If you've noticed, there are sections of Mario Sunshine where ducking is emphasized as much as it is in various sections of the old Mario games where you duck to get under a single tile while running. Thats an example of a good translation of 2D mechanics to a 3D world.

With Sonic games, you sacrifice one dimension in favor of another and replace a mechanic with various "special moves".

Oh, I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that, with a side scroller, it's more natural to just duck by pressing down, since you're already pressing the d-pad, you know?

I suppose tossing a duck button would make rolling more vital (this is assuming, of course, that a physics engine would allow for sonic to gain speed running down inclines, and faster when rolling. I think someone said that running down hills doesn't boost speed too much in the 3d games)

The thing is though, once we add that, we gotta get on that level design. I'm not gonna roll 1000000 MPH if I'm an inch from falling to my doom. The levels need to utilize the roll more, and the roll needs to be a bit more important.

[DimensionWarped]

I suppose tossing a duck button would make rolling more vital (this is assuming, of course, that a physics engine would allow for sonic to gain speed running down inclines, and faster when rolling. I think someone said that running down hills doesn't boost speed too much in the 3d games)

I'm going to say this once and I'm going to say it loud. 2D concepts can indeed transfer directly into 3D engines. Programming in 3D does absolutely nothing to code aside from add an extra dimension to consider, and you get your slopes and things the exact same in 3D as you do in 2D... only its a tad easier since you can just get the orientation of a normal.

You can have the exact same physics from Sonic the Hedgehog 2 with 3 dimensions.

[Serephim]

"We can all agree that the elemental shields need to be revived too."

I've been saying this forever. Although, as DW once pointed out, the Fire Shield has almost no point now. Well.. at least not the way it was originally used in Sonic 3.

Fire Sheild could alter the Homing Attack in some way, but in recent games it would do nothing but get you killed. StH had a nice idea of a fire sheild, until you end up running into something you cant destroy with it. Retarded.

Take away sonic's bounce attack.

Water Sheild = Bounce attack. I think it would be cool to have the sheild let you run over water surfaces. (would add an element of gameplay to the 3D games. In water stages, **EDIT** it would be cool that holding on to a water sheild would let you run across water to new places in the level. It would also make finding new paths in other stages where its needed to get there pretty cool.) It also should give you gills. (Durr.)

Electric Sheild = Double Jump instead of Homing Attack, and the Double Jump should maybe send out self targeting lightning bolts instead. Win-Win situation. (until you need to hit a spring or something. It should send out a Magnetic lighting bolt to "homing attack" important things like springs, granted your in range. Could work?) Goes out when you step in water, and causes damage to anything in range when you step in. It would be cool to have a puzzle where you have to activate doors/machines by stepping in water with an electric sheild on to give it power. Also attracts rings. (Durr.)

Fire Sheild = Increased range/speed/power homing attack. With a really cool ass effect to it when you homing attack. (Going really fast should give you a Sonic Rush type boost effect, where you can just run through most enemies.)

Also, in fire/lava stages, it should allow you to walk on fire/run through lava. There should be a Lava Reef type level where you have to naviagate through lava pools in a Fire Sheild to solve puzzles (although, getting hit underlava would suck ass.). Once again, it would also make for seperate path ideas in some stages where its required to get there alive. Water makes it fizz out. (durr.)

Normal Sheild = Durr.

Im feeling a STRONG urge to keep working on Tails Adventure 2. (THESE IDEAS ARE MINE.)

[MidimanNull]

Sereph stole my post.

yay.

[Aaron C-T]

Midi: Also, the water bubble is completely useless because there has never been a 3D water stage. And by that I don't mean a stage with water in it. Sorry about that, when I edited that back in I didn't see your post.

PG: The PS3/X360 controllers have 4 shoulder buttons, 4 face buttons, a D-Pad and two analog sticks which can be pressed down for an addition two buttons. I'm sure they can figure something out. With better level design and with actual physics rolling would pretty much come naturally, no? And by better level design I mean actual "return to the roots" level design unlike what they normally dish out when they refer to the past.

[Pheonix Gamma]

I'm going to say this once and I'm going to say it loud. 2D concepts can indeed transfer directly into 3D engines. Programming in 3D does absolutely nothing to code aside from add an extra dimension to consider, and you get your slopes and things the exact same in 3D as you do in 2D... only its a tad easier since you can just get the orientation of a normal.

You can have the exact same physics from Sonic the Hedgehog 2 with 3 dimensions.

Yea...but I dunno if I can trust Sega to get it right, is all. I know it's possible (Zelda, Mario, and Metroid made smooth transitions) it's just that I would want someone a bit more...dependable? Hence why I suggest Sega hand the rights to another developer or something (ala Nintendo letting Capcom work on Zelda, or that other company make a Yoshi's Island for the DS)

I dunno. I not speak words very goodly. Leave PG alone ;_;

[Aaron C-T]

Last time I remember someone handing over the reigns to Sonic the Hedgehog a game was cancelled and a console died. Yes, I'm speaking of Sonic X-treme. I believe they had like.. no experience with the franchise at all or something. Don't remember the details.

[Pheonix Gamma]

Last time I remember someone handing over the reigns to Sonic the Hedgehog a game was cancelled and a console died. Yes, I'm speaking of Sonic X-treme. I believe they had like.. no experience with the franchise at all or something. Don't remember the details.

Capcom never made a Zelda before the Oracle games, and they were pretty good :E

Not to imply that Capcom should make the next Sonic. There were a lot of problems with Sonic X-treme.

[Aaron C-T]

I suppose, but we both know that Sonic Team would give the franchise to the exact wrong people. Also, I don't ever remember Zelda being broken so I'm not sure there was anything to fix (not sure as I'm not really into Zelda). They could easily hand it over and the new team would simply look at recent games or something. I doubt Sonic Team would force them to make a 3D game based on the olden days when they don't even care about them themselves.

[Pheonix Gamma]

Well I can't really trust Sonic Team at all these days ::shrug::

[VectorSatyr]

"And omg, the final song for the game sounds like a gospel track or something. It annoyed me."

Haven't bothered to beat the game yet, but if the final song is the one with the lyrics "when I was down, you pick me up" then guess what? It is a gospel song. I've heard it several times in church. No, I don't know why it's been remixed for something so random.

The Final Boss Song is "Wrapped in Black". *remembers first Rush thread*

[DimensionWarped]

Yea...but I dunno if I can trust Sega to get it right, is all. I know it's possible (Zelda, Mario, and Metroid made smooth transitions) it's just that I would want someone a bit more...dependable?

I dunno. I not speak words very goodly.

Its not about trust. Trust is irrelevant. They'll never do it because they don't have a reason to do it. As long as the games sell in the millions, they don't care. That wasn't always true though. Back on the Genesis, you might even say SEGA didn't understood the old proverb "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

They switched to the 3D idea before they were ready because they wanted to innovate, but in the end all they had was 3D Blast, which wasn't Sonic in any way shape or form, but then they decided to evolve off of the broken games in their future 3D forays rather than evolving off of 2D Sonic. Sonic Adventure is essentially nothing more than Sonic 3D Blast with a plot, real 3D graphics, and better environments... and of course gameplay that isn't based on killing all the enemies to get the dumb birds.

[Pheonix Gamma]

But still had dumb birds. Or a dumb bird, at least.

So basically, Sega needs to drop every lame character they've tacked onto the franchise, make rolling important again, improve level design so you're not running on thin strips of land floating over an endless abyss, and leave out anything that might hint at Hedgehog on Human sex. Did I leave anything out?

[Aaron C-T]

You left out the fact that it'd be easier, and probably only possible, through a reboot.

[DimensionWarped]

No, thats not it at all. The franchise needs to follow an 8 fold path.

Right Mechanics - Oldschool mechanics... the type of basic movement that made Sonic famous. Sonic 3D Blast didn't work, so obviously recycling the mechanics from it and trying to improve on them isn't the best idea.

Right Design - Make levels that cater to the same facets as oldschool Sonic games. There should be some levels that have very little speed, there should be more orientation on platforming, there should be more interaction with the world and more attention to filling space rather than having the majority of the world being an empty void. Thats where modern 2D goes wrong... everything is just long stretches of empty space without impediment or difference in terrain. Thats a good bit due to the fact that (surprise surprise), filling the space in a way that flows naturally takes time and time is money. Which... brings me to the 3rd

Right Effort - Oldschool had some fat loot spent to make the game. Thats obvious when your primary advertiser is MTV at the peak of its popularity. So why is Sonic lame now? Sonic is cheap now! Recycled enemies between most games followed by empty vacuous environments, and a total lack of pretty much any variability in terrain details and objects. Couple that with the lack of money spent on modeling, and whats left? Some cheap music made by composers who obviously are being payed for recognition rather than talent used on a piece. I'm looking at you Zebrahead. SEGA should spend money on a game series that used to be a console attractor. A game like that should be an artform and thus shouldn't be impeded by a budget. Zelda isn't strung upside down by a budget, and it didn't start out any better than Sonic did.

Right Mindfulness - So we have these plots that aren't particularly light hearted... Sonic is a light hearted mascot and thus, deserving of a light hearted plot... and anyway, we have these plots and they all adhere to an annoying formula. Whats that formula? Gather Chaos emeralds, fight boss, gasp at real boss, fight real boss. Certainly, the redundant plot line isn't whats hurting the series. After all, oldschool was redundant in the same ways. The problem is in the presentation. Every twist is a tragedy. Thats the problem. I blame Sonic and Knuckles. Of course, it works with Sonic and Knuckles. Thats because its the only time it was ever done up unto that point. When you have a redundant problem with the same over the top attitude over and over again, thats when things get rough. What could they do though? Hell, I don't quite know. Certainly, they could have a plot that isn't too concerned with collecting emeralds. They could also have a radically different story. One thing is certain though, they should have a new story. Now that they have to have a story (you can't regress from having a story to having no story. That is an epitome of lameness... and a huge confession of failure), they should work at making it a story that is fresh.

Trying to keep a story fresh in an action game though... thats difficult. Look at Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball Z or some other stupid ____ for what I mean. It can certainly be done though. Attachment to a particular plot line hurts SEGA in this respect. They want to go along with their horribly broken plot to the ends of the earth. Suppose though that they just tore it asunder and pulled a Zelda-esque Link is now a cowboy thing. A shift in identity could readily inject personality into the story. Suppose for instance that Knuckles was a drug lord in the Caribbean. Now, I'm obviously just stating that as an absurd example... but really. Quirky is good. Tails should take the geeky scientist idea and throw it over the top. Warp his dialogue, give him nerdy glasses and an equally nerdy grin. Put him in a lab coat, or even better, something like the crazy getup that Leon from SO2 wears. Change his mannerism significantly. make a new character out of him while still following the same basic architecture.

As for the new characters, don't just get rid of them. Shadow sucks just like Tails sucks. If they pulled something like I suggested with Tails, he could be genuinely awesome and not just in the Zero "I have a sword!" badass sense. If he lost the Maria plot, they gave him a fresh personality, and they gave him some manner of character (generic hero/villain isn't a role, give him some manner of purpose in the world, a job maybe, or perhaps something really crazy. Shadow likes vehicles... say he runs a bike gang or something. Something way over the top that allows him to continue to express his only important trait ever: egotism.

And hot damn, I'm about to go over the character limit if I haven't already. I'm going to have to stop at 4 for this given minute.

4887 characters... without this thing of course. Thats just 100 below the limit.

[Pheonix Gamma]

Kill off Rouge and Big and Cream at least. I only played Rush, but I approve of Blaze.

Make Sonic badass again. He always had this 'tude in the 90's, and I think he was probably coolest in Adventure (actually, I think that might be my favorite Sonic plot of all the games. Big ruined a lot, but everything else was mighty good.)

I think now people are more weary of buying a Sonic title, since the quality and level of satisfaction hasn't been that high, so sales will eventually go down, reviews will get worse, and Sonic Team would have to up their game or Sonic will just become another Bubsy or Crash.

[DimensionWarped]

Its not possible for Sonic to become another Bubsy/Crash. He simply has too much name recognition for that.

[MidimanNull]

At the worst, the games will probably get 4.0's, since it will always get a cheap baseline due to it using higher end graphics.

What ticks me off is the lack of variety in character moves, ever since SA2, they had that Double Move Syndrome vibe going on, for example: if you picked Dark team, it was just the same thing as Hero team or whatever, only with a different stage. You would think that eggman would have a mech that operated different from tails', or rouge would be able to fly, instead of just glide.

[Aaron C-T]

PG: Sonic Adventure did indeed have the best storyline, because it was entirely fantasy. Oldschool influenced the hell out of it (Robotnik tricks Knuckles, Tails flashback of meeting Sonic, Knuckles contemplating his goal as the guardian of the ME, the Floating Island actually being readily accessible). There was just so much that screamed oldschool in that storyline. However, SA2 let quite a bit of that oldschool vibe go and it was still a decent story. It's only for Sonic Heroes where they tried to continue the SA2 storyline that they really screwed up. The original SA lended itself much better to a direct sequel, because there were still loose ends and SA had an actual world in it. SA2 just kind of stuck you somewhere, referred to SA once that I can remember, and ended with the death of Shadow and that was pretty much that. Shadow was dead, the biolizard was dead, the Ark was abandoned. The end. The end of SA had it so that Station Square was destroyed (meaning that a direct sequel would possibly have Station Square being rebuilt or something), the Knuckles thing could've been expanded upon, Tails had actually done something for himself and a direct sequel would have him feeling much more confident, etc. SA2 didn't really give all that extra stuff the way SA did and when it ended that's all it did. Sure Tails and Robotnik came to the agreement that they wouldn't hold back next time, but that's not really anything to build a story off of, and it was abandoned in SH from what I know.

Midiman: Too bad Tails already flies. I totally agree though, because she's a bat. Shadow, if they keep him and we know they will, should be all about his powers. He should be just as fast as Sonic under the current storyline (regardless of whether or not his shoes give him more speed), Tails should be only slightly slower, Knuckles a bit slower than that and there should be more emphasis on the combat that was assigned to him in SA. Cream's a cheap character all together as she's fast, she can fly, I believe she can swim, and she has a homing chao. Technically, she'd probably be a formidable opponent to Sonic being that Sonic can neither swim nor fly. ::shrug::

[VectorSatyr]

Cream's a cheap character all together as she's fast, she can fly, I believe she can swim, and she has a homing chao. Technically, she'd probably be a formidable opponent to Sonic being that Sonic can neither swim nor fly. ::shrug::

Cream is a female clone of Tails with less flight time. If you were to give magnitude to their abilities, she'd be between Tails and Knuckles in speed, and she'd probably swim better than Tails. Furthermore, she's also the weakest character out of all of them.

[Pheonix Gamma]

SA was more...modern fantasy...I'd say...Station Square, and some of the music (and Amy) gave me a Japanese big city vibe for some reason, but then you had the story of Chaos and the flashbacks, which was all fantasy stuff. It was neat. And I think having humans was cool.

Now that I think of it, Sonic saving the town and stuff...kinda super-heroy...but I know DW or Koray's gonna come and say something like "nuh uh I know a big word that means 'PG is wrong'"

[Aaron C-T]

I still say it'd be a great thing, for the plot anyway, to start over. Before Sonic the Hedgehog became the "Blue Blur." Perhaps go back and use some of the storyline from Sonic 3/Sonic & Knuckles. That's just me though. It'd be something that'd give them a lot of play room.

Does anyone know how the sales on Sonic Next were? I would think that the PS3 version automatically wouldn't be doing well simply because I doubt someone who spends 600 bucks and risks getting shot at will be going out to buy a Sonic game- nevermind a bad Sonic game. Then there's that whole bit about most PS3s being sold out anyway and the fact that there weren't many to begin with. As far as I know, the Nintendo GameCube was the main system where Sonic games sold like crazy (with practically every game becoming a Player's Choice). Those things, combined with the fact that Sonic Next reviews pretty much suck incredibly hard, make me think that sales would be extremely low. A boycott, under these conditions, would've probably had a truly significany impact.