"Stealing"

[Nieves]

I intend to create a game and don't want to buy into what looks like the culture of the fangaming scene.

Two things happen here.

1. Someone makes their own art or edit and says "Don't use it". People are expected not to use it.

2. Someone makes their own art or edit and says nothing. People are expected not to use it.

My opinion is that if you produce something I like, and I reproduce it, there is nothing wrong as long as I don't call it my own work, and as long as I don't prevent you from profiting from it. If I put an official Sonic on a shirt, no problem. If you draw Sonic and I put that on a shirt, no problem. If you draw your own new character and I put that on a t-shirt, no problem. Even if you said not to? Yes, even if you said not to. If you can't handle someone copying it, keep it in private circles.

Now that sounds pretty extreme, so here is how I justify it. I'm making this game for me. It's basically a mix tape, except a mix tape is full of other people's work and this will mostly be my work. I don't care why the artists wrote those songs; I just like them so I am reproducing them when I find that enjoyable.

So I'm not writing a game to be accepted by some crowd. I'm writing a game for me; the funnest thing I can come up with from all this other stuff I can find, designed in the way I enjoy most. I want people to go "Hey this music is perfect, what is it?" or "This game is sweet! Love the funky sprites!" No, I don't see the benefit in using others' sprites if they don't fit the character of my game. At the same time, for me there is no problem if I did. It would just probably ruin my game. Likewise I would feel no problem if I copied Rihanna, Unleashed, or Nexus for their music.

And that's a good comparison. Unleashed music vs Nexus music. Somehow one is ok and the other not?

Just to repeat, the difference I'm highlighting is that I'm writing a game for me. From there, other people can look at it if they want.

I am not considering legalities in this discussion, unless of course I am threatened with real consequences. Although it only adds to my disinterest in the the whole issue when everyone uses Sega's for-profit work yet is irked by someone using their non-profit edits. What I see is a bunch of guys not wanting someone else to take rewards from their hard work - understandable - yet at the same time believing they can judge someone for using it for their own purposes once it has been made copyable. It's completely fine for the creator/editor to be disgruntled, but not judgemental. Don't die in PSO Ep1 if you're going to cart your big toys around.

That's my position. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise if someone can but I believe my perspective is solid. I guess if you're sensitive to this issue you wouldn't enjoy my game, but that is exactly what I won't let pull my game down.

[DimensionWarped]

I've made it pretty clear that I'm against fangame creators trying to protect their creations from general use like that. There are a lot of people here who agree with me and there are a lot of people who don't.

That said, give credit to the original sources. Anyone who doesn't give credit is a fucking dick. In fact, you should probably go above and beyond to make sure people know what comes from where. It wouldn't hurt for when a song comes on to say the source of that song and who made it in a little scrolling text somewhere. And if you can't do that, put it in a sound test menu or something. Not really necessary things, but it'd be appreciated by both the people playing your game and the original artists.

As for Hunter, I don't think he's ever said anyone can't use the music for Nexus. I mean, most of the Nexus guys would probably appreciate you to at least wait for the game to be finished before ripping assets from it, but I doubt any of them would publicly hang you for using their work... as long as you credited them in some prominent fashion for it.

[tentril]

I don't think I've seen people saying no one can ever use their stuff EVER. Its mostly that they want credit. If you agree that people deserve credit for their work, you should probably revise your post because right now it sounds like, "I can use anyone's stuff for anything and you can suck it."

[Asuma]

I don't think you should use anything user-created (fan game wise) without permission from the author. If you managed to rip the custom sprites from Nexus and use them, then I believe Slingerland or whomever might want rip your head off. Regardless if credit them. I tired something like that years ago... and yea. Wasn't well received.

[Sparks]

I don't think you should use anything user-created (fan game wise) without permission from the author. If you managed to rip the custom sprites from Nexus and use them, then I believe Slingerland or whomever might want rip your head off. Regardless if credit them. I tired something like that years ago... and yea. Wasn't well received.

Pretty much this. It's unfair to the creator to use it without asking. :/

I also don't think the level artists of official games would be too peeved as long as said fan games are non profit, since they got their paycheck. We don't get any paycheck. Saying "Credit to Money Making (x) game company" would probably be acceptable.

However if someone went and took one of my zones and used it, I'd be pretty mad because a good chunk of my graphics are custom. :/

right now it sounds like, "I can use anyone's stuff for anything and you can suck it."

This is also what I'm hearing, and all that'll happen with this idea is trouble and e-drama.

[OverbounD]

Nieves it seems to be you are just trying to justify being rude. Anyway I know that there was an article on the Nexus site about someone using music or something like that I don't think they gave credit though.

I'll be pretty pissed if I see anyone using art I have created for Sonic Time Twisted in their games. I try to be helpful to other fan gamers around here I've even created some art for people on occasion. But my stuff is my stuff. I don't care if it contradicts what we do to Sega. I also think if you use your philosophy to justify stealing people's works, you will make yourself a lot of enemies.

[Tweaker]

This doesn't make any sense. The mere notion that someone should not have the rights for their own content to remain exclusive per their own wishes is absolutely ridiculous. You are not entitled to everybody else's work to just use as you please, and the fact that you think you are is both ignorant and extremely arrogant. If someone doesn't want you to use something, don't use it.

What if I took your fangame, edited all the credits fields, and then reposted it as my own under a different name? Something tells me you wouldn't be incredibly flattered.

[DimensionWarped]

I hate to point out the obvious here Tweaker, but you did plenty of borrowing without seeking permission with Megamix. The Sonic IP itself, the songs, sound effects and sprites from other games, just a lot of little things.

And yes, people are valued not for the work that they show but for the work that they do. That much doesn't change regardless of your whole approach to this issue.

All he is saying is that we shouldn't be any more protected in this regard than the people we don't get upset about borrowing from, and he's absolutely right.

Really though, what's our criteria for protection? Being one of us? Not being a professional? If I were to draw the line in the sand I'd draw it around the whole bloody sandbox.

[Tweaker]

I hate to point out the obvious here Tweaker, but you did plenty of borrowing without seeking permission with Megamix.

Uh... when, exactly? There's a difference between using an official asset and a fan-created asset within the scope of this community, no matter how much you wish to point out that it's technically the same. There's always been a rule--unwritten of otherwise--of respect towards the ownership of other fan's creations, given that the people who created them are much more readily available than the official developers. I have never used another fan's work without their permission and I expect others to show that same respect towards other fans.

Also, given that SEGA is fully aware of our use of their assets and they don't do anything to stop us or even ask us to stop, I'd say there's a distinction to make in that regard as well. It's not the same.

[DimensionWarped]

That rule is the rule of a hypocrite. It's not a rule I'd ever take any offense over being broken.

As for the fact that they don't do anything to stop us from using their content, that might simply be their own wise business decisions. They might just happen to be aware of the kinds of public backlash that happen when a company does tell you that you can't use their assets.

But for the sake of the argument, how did you feel about the fanmade Kings Quest sequel being shut down or the Chrono Trigger remake being shut down? I know it irritated me.

Why are we allowed to draw shit with impunity but the minute we say we are going to make a game out of something we can be told no? It's arbitrary distinctions like these that drive my morality on the whole content use issue.

[Tweaker]

But for the sake of the argument, how did you feel about the fanmade Kings Quest sequel being shut down or the Chrono Trigger remake being shut down? I know it irritated me.

I wasn't particularly interested in either project, but I think it kind of sucked. Still, the original companies have the rights to their intellectual property and they were fully within their rights to revoke its usage at their own discretion. I think it's only fair that people who create original content within the scope of the amateur Sonic fan scene have that same basic respect given to them given that they have no legal basis on which to prevent its usage.

[DimensionWarped]

See, thats the thing though. When it comes right down to it we've all already been officially denied usage to use these intellectual properties and resources. That's implicit to playing the games and accepting the EULAs and just copyright law in general. The reason we don't care isn't because they don't care so much as it is because we have an interest in doing something. Changing existing games, making a derivative work, whatever. We don't seek permission for any of them because we know we'd probably either never get a response or we'd be given a flat out no.

I don't like that we can just be told that we can't work on a project. And you know, I approach that the same way with individual fans as I approach it with large companies. I don't want to rock the boat and get people angry with me, so I won't use someone's shit if they expressly forbid it, but it isn't in any way out of respect for that notion. In fact, forbidding other people from using your work is an instant turn off to me, especially if you are relying heavily on already existing materials. I'd generally prefer it if everyone just said that you could take and use as you please with credit on anything that isn't for profit. The only time I think people should be protected from others is when they are at risk of being competed against with their own resources.

[Asuma]

So, if I ripped a sprite from Nexus (hypothetically speaking, you were the project lead.) and used with crediting the Nexus team you'd be okay with that?

[wesker]

I agree with Nieves and DW (But you've all known my stance on this- you know the one of logic.)

It's nice to ask for other peoples permissions to use stuff, as well as to give credit in the credits section of your game.

Is this neccessary?

Absolutely not, it's just nice. Honestly, who cares what anyone here thinks in regards to their Sonic Fangame content being stolen.

Chances are they stole the program to create that asset in the first place.

[DimensionWarped]

So, if I ripped a sprite from Nexus (hypothetically speaking, you were the project lead.) and used with crediting the Nexus team you'd be okay with that?

Not that you'd ever see this post now that its in the trash, but absolutely yes.

[ila]

Fine Nieves. That's you're way of doing things. But if you want to stick around here you can follow the SFGHQ House Policy of Decency. If something made by someone else here hasn't been clearly labeled as open use, ask first.

[Slingerland]

Nieves, I think you're an idiot. Not because you want to steal Nexus stuff, but because you want to steal stuff period.

[hRook]

Honestly, who cares what anyone here thinks in regards to their Sonic Fangame content being stolen. Chances are they stole the program to create that asset in the first place.

If I did buy the program does that means people should care what I think about people stealing my Sonic Fangame content? Cause I bought Cubase, and I don't want people stealing the music I've made for Nexus.

[DimensionWarped]

You know Hunter, you are pretty much the closest thing to an exception since you actually do make original content without borrowing anything when you are making the music...

At the same time though, I don't think you should be too angry if someone borrowed your song and it came on with a banner flashing at the bottom of the screen saying the title of the song, the fact that you wrote it, and the fact that it was for the Nexus project. It'd be nothing but positive exposure.

And even then, not everything is completely removed from borrowed works. You've always supported the whole idea of remixing and as I recall, there is still remixed music in Nexus even if it is for the most part heavily hidden in many layers of significant work. Particularly in the main theme.

[wesker]

I think it's pretty obvious (Especially from Nieves post) that if people want it, they will get it.

[Nieves]

Long post. Currently editing for readability.

Only read what applies to you if you like. General stuff separated and a few points at the bottom.

Dimension Warped

I’m not against creators trying to protect their content. I’m against creators not trying to if they expect to judge others for using it.

I agree that giving credit is appreciated but not necessary. I am against taking credit but when it comes to giving it, I only support and encourage, not demand, because I am not about these rules limiting the creation.

Tentril

I maintain my position that there's nothing wrong with using work as long as I don't take credit for it. This also means that for me it's also important to not give the impression that I created what I didn't and this is what would drive me most towards actually giving credit. Now from that, if someone fails to credit me but has not made it look like their own work, I’m fine. My response is "It would have been nice, but there’s no loss here. At least my work is spreading." My work is just something they used for their own personal project.

Asuma

I think it would be immature for whomever to want to rip someone’s head off when they didn’t bother to protect them. I don’t take my wallet out on the train and put a $100 note on the seat behind me.

Sparks

It could help my game. It doesn’t take anything away from you. I use content without permission daily, in many areas of life. You call it unfair because of something you believe in revolving around fangames. You think everyone else believes that too, when there are probably others disappointed at how your belief works. That’s okay, you have the right to feel how you want, but it’s a mistake to assume others follow that. If you feel it would be unfair of someone who doesn’t share your beliefs to use your work, why not protect it?

Overbound

I’m not justifying stealing; I’m saying what a silly notion. You just have your one perspective but I thank you for not forcing it onto me. Do I steal my housemate’s opera singing when I record it for a mix tape? I’m not justifying being rude; it’s not rude to me. Try driving in Roman traffic – they don’t think it’s rude and have no intention of editing their definition to match yours. I’m not saying people wouldn’t get angry; I’m saying anger is typically not even recognised by people who never subscribed to the rules of the aggressor. It will surely exist because humans often get angry when they’re upset regardless, but to think anger based only on person Y’s view has a case isn’t realistic.

What I'm against here is inventing morals for others. What hurts you is because of you. Be responsible for the things you fear will leave you upset. If you genuinely don't want to risk others using your work, what is stopping your from managing how you release it? I use the term "inventing morals" for the people who think they can ignore this responsibility, then judge others who never shared their beliefs.

I refer to my PSO example again for this. In PSO Ep1, if you died, you dropped your weapon. Someone else could pick it up and keep it. Once I lost an s-rank to this, and I reacted with what I expect from any situation where there are no controlling rules. It was a bitter loss but I didn't judge him for playing the game as it was meant to be. He never agreed to my rules, and I put my s-rank in the domain of his beliefs. Not everyone has to work my way and I entered that situation of risk by choice. Your “wrong” isn't pre-defined naturally nor is it global, and calling people bad in an effort to make your wrong everyone's wrong is really the mistake. It really is your choice to risk something in a world that never granted you a right to judge people for thinking differently to you.

Remember the mix tape again. If you can’t think along those terms you are possibly missing the point of just using content that one finds for personal enjoyment. You guys are following some principle that just doesn't always exist but seems to fire people up when it comes to fan game creation. Really, if someone says "Don't use this" I can happily turn around and say "Well I can see it improving something personal for me and I don't follow your perspective so if you don't want me to use it, take control and put it away."

Sorry to drag you closer to the contested side DW, but I think your comment about drawing with impunity is a good one.

________________________________

Tweaker

Believing in rights with no basis is what’s ridiculous. We aren’t actually born with a right to shelter, food, or health care. They aren’t natural concepts but ideas created and given by other humans. Your post is a little dramatic. I’d rather have a debate than an argument of emotions.

I am against stealing credit. Your last line seems to confuse this.

Dimension Warped

There can be no criteria for protection if protection can’t be maintained from anyone who isn’t part of the circle.

Tweaker

This topic is not within the scope of this community. Unwritten rules are followed by those who wish to follow them. No-one is in the wrong for not following them because there is no consequence enforced, thus no agreement stated.

Asuma

“So, if I ripped a sprite from Nexus (hypothetically speaking, you were the project lead) and used with crediting the Nexus team you'd be okay with that?”

Of course. Regardless of whether you meant to write “with” or “without”. I would have protected it otherwise. It’s my responsibility and I wouldn’t think I’m so important that I can make it your responsibility.

Wesker

Funny point at the end hehehe.

Ila

I’m not asking to stick around here. As I said to Tweaker, this topic is not within the scope of this community.

Slingerland

As I said to Overbound, you are not thinking that what you call stealing is simply silly and disappointing to others. Now you’ve used that to throw an insult in this thread. Can you not please.

I imagine you might not want to consider what I just wrote, but if you support any kind of positive discussion about difficult topics, you will consider it. Nexus looks great – excellently polished – but I haven’t considered taking anything from it so far.

Someone mentioned this was in the trash?

I want to say to the mods here that this board needs to be able to handle controversial topics if it wants to think seriously of itself as a forum for discussion and debate. I’m not interested in flaming anyone; I’m expressing my views and allowing everyone to turn them if they have some good points. Or even consider mine. Don’t kill the luxury of expression, don’t make this discussion a victim of angry mods please. We’re using words here.

________________________

hRook

Again with the stealing. So I can’t put it on my iRiver? Can I put a Youtube remix of Icecap in my game then? Who is making all these rules, where do I read them, and when did I sign?

I think the most commonly misunderstood points are:

• that one’s beliefs are automatically shared and this gives one a right to judge

• that one’s beliefs are automatically shared and this excuses him/her from being responsible for their own protection

• that everyone shares this rather specialised belief of stealing

• that this issue is within the community, when anyone can come to this forum, or youtube, or download a fangame, and take content without agreeing to anything

Protecting content is the content holder's responsibility.

[Rawr]

Rofl, this pisses me off slightly. I mean, I posted a sprite sheet where I said on it for nobody to use. Why did I post it then? To get feedback. I want to know what things I might be able to do to make it better and thats why these forums are here, I don't post them up for people to use.

I think if someone says that they don't want people using what they've created, that should be honoured around here. If people want you to ask for their permission first (so they know where it is going to be used) that should be honoured too, but if you neglect to state that you don't want the assets used...then its free game . I think when people want their resources to not be used by others, then as a fangaming community we should at least respect that much for eachother.

Otherwise I'm totally just going to steal someones game right now LOLOLOL.

[Nieves]

The problem is how much you just used the word "should". Microsoft tells me what I should do all the time.

The other point is that you had other options if you wanted to protect your work.

And finally, this is not about "around here". This topic is not enclosed by this forum. It's another common point I should add really.

[Sparks]

What the crap are you even talking about?

I'm still just hearing you trying to find logical reasons to be an asshole and make it acceptable to steal works for fan games.

[Rael0505]

ITT Nieves doesn't know how to make good graphics himself but he still wants to make a decent game so he wants to be able to take other people's work and use it. My basic problem with that is this:

The only time I think people should be protected from others is when they are at risk of being competed against with their own resources.

I spend literally months on some of the background sets I make for Emerald Ties because I want it to be one of the best fangames out there. Let's say this Nieves guy is going to take some of my graphics and combine stuff with other stuff he rips from Nexus, XG, Megamix, Retro, etc. Then my project, as well as all of those, are going to be competing with his game with our own graphics created for our personal project.

Personally I would plan on releasing all of my assets to the community, but only AFTER the game is finished and released. I would want my game to be the first one out there with my graphics so it's still special to my project. I don't know if I'll be doing that though, because I'd have to run it past Gamerdude first. Back when half the graphics I made were going to my own project, I was planning on releasing them all, but now they're all going to ET:CF and he gets to make the call.

Try driving in Roman traffic – they don’t think it’s rude and have no intention of editing their definition to match yours. I’m not saying people wouldn’t get angry; I’m saying anger is typically not even recognised by people who never subscribed to the rules of the aggressor. It will surely exist because humans often get angry when they’re upset regardless, but to think anger based only on person Y’s view has a case isn’t realistic.

That's the most retarded-as-fuck thing I've ever heard. Do you drive? If so, don't tell me you don't get pissed off when someone next to you tries to merge into your lane without signalling or looking and you have to honk your horn several times just so they don't slam into you. It just happend to me a few hours ago. Sure, they don't know you're angry, and sure, I'm only angry because I'm on the receiving end, but that doesn't change the fact that they're careless douchebags and don't deserve to drive if they can't follow the rules.

SEGA is a large company that gets paid to do what it does. We're just fans who try stuff ourselves and happen to come up with something good. All of the backgrounds I've made are a result of months, or even years of continued (or on-and-off) work. I want them to be in my project only (at least until its completion) so it remains special and unique to my project. If it appears in everyone's project, ti's no longer special. And with the amount of work and time that goes into my graphics intended for personal use, you can bet it'll be less special if I see everyone using it.

I feel like if you had good work of your own, you would take a different stance to this issue. If you didn't put years of work into something intended for your own use, I bet you'd want the exclusive rights to it. But you can't see it from that point of view because you haven't been in my position, or the position of anyone else who has put hours, weeks, or years into original content. We don't reuse sprites and graphics from real games because it's not special, anyone can use it. Like ila said, you have to follow our rules of etiquette if you want to share work with us here.

And FYI, I'm an admin here and I would be able to see any deleted posts, and there are none. I believe DW was referring to something that happened in another thread. We're not censoring this discussion.