"Stealing"

[DimensionWarped]

Dimension Warped

I’m not against creators trying to protect their content. I’m against creators not trying to if they expect to judge others for using it.

I agree that giving credit is appreciated but not necessary. I am against taking credit but when it comes to giving it, I only support and encourage, not demand, because I am not about these rules limiting the creation.

You see, that is something I can't at all condone. You can't pass someone else's work off as your own. If someone tries to pull that kind of bullshit, people are well within their rights to eat them alive. Anyone who deliberately doesn't credit someone else while using their work will immediately be banned upon finding out about it. And anyone who does it indeliberately should try to take whatever measures possible to undo that wrong.

And the more prominently you point out what isn't your own, the better.

I spend literally months on some of the background sets I make for Emerald Ties because I want it to be one of the best fangames out there. Let's say this Nieves guy is going to take some of my graphics and combine stuff with other stuff he rips from Nexus, XG, Megamix, Retro, etc. Then my project, as well as all of those, are going to be competing with his game with our own graphics created for our personal project.

Personally I would plan on releasing all of my assets to the community, but only AFTER the game is finished and released. I would want my game to be the first one out there with my graphics so it's still special to my project. I don't know if I'll be doing that though, because I'd have to run it past Gamerdude first. Back when half the graphics I made were going to my own project, I was planning on releasing them all, but now they're all going to ET:CF and he gets to make the call.

Earlier I did make that point... that I think ripping from a completed project is better than ripping before a project is complete (I have no idea why I feel that way, I just do, probably because once the project is done it belongs to everyone more so than back when it was just a demo).

Again though, there is no need to feel threatened by Frankenstein amalgamation projects. Those kinds of projects are typically more half hearted and generally lack the means to compete with their source material. It's like this Neives guy is saying... he isn't a big fangamer trying to make something amazing, he is just trying to do something for his own personal enjoyment. Those of us working on high profile projects want something more than that out of this whole ordeal.

Other stuff:

As for the whole trashed thing, the whole thread was in the trash for roughly 15 minutes and then removed upon reconsideration. Nothing was deleted and nothing is particularly out of context.

[hRook]

hRook

Again with the stealing. So I can’t put it on my iRiver? Can I put a Youtube remix of Icecap in my game then? Who is making all these rules, where do I read them, and when did I sign?

I should have been more clear. I don't want people using Nexus music for other projects. Feel free to put it on your iRiver (Really, you don't have an iPod?).

Stop being a melodramatic bitch.

[Rawr]

Okay, then I am being told by the law that I am not allowed to kill anyone, something came up for us to follow by other humans when it isn't their place to say what I can do or not. So I guess I'm allowed to go on a killing spree if I want to because I don't see things the same way. Lol.

Regardless, it doesn't bother me as much when it comes to Sonic related material. But I'm an artist as well, and as an artist its good to get exposure but I don't want people using my art for their projects without me knowing/being approached for it first. Sure as shit if I were to make something and have it trademarked, and I saw somebody using it in a way I didn't agree with (ie, for profit) I would be C&Ding that so quick. SEGA has the right to quickly shut fangames down whenever they want, but they don't. However if they came up to you and told you to quit making your fangame you'd have no other choice but to stop, regardless of your 'I don't care what they say' type attitude evident from your first post. If you put Official Sonic on a shirt and they didn't want you to do it, you'd have to knock it off.

[Slingerland]

Yeah, Nieves, I read everything that you wrote and my answer will remain that short.

There's nothing to discuss. Your opinion does not sway mine in the slightest. You think you can steal original work? Then you're an idiot. No, I won't resist using an insult. You're an idiot. Make your own stuff like the rest of us. Why even risk being tainted by starting forum drama over using something without permission anyway?

As for the "positive exposure" argument, I think that reason is also shit. If anything my team does is worth stealing, then it's good enough to have been properly exposed by then.

I want my original materials to be unique to my project because it's my project. I'm not making them for you. I'm making them for me. If you just up and take my stuff before I can even use it myself, then you're a dick. Nobody wants to be a dick.

I think the most commonly misunderstood points are:

• that one’s beliefs are automatically shared and this gives one a right to judge

• that one’s beliefs are automatically shared and this excuses him/her from being responsible for their own protection

• that everyone shares this rather specialised belief of stealing

So, are you claiming to be superior to us or are you just Blazefire's lawyer? What the fuck are you even talking about to begin with?

For the record: I did not bin this topic, but I apologize on behalf of the staff member who did. However, no posts in this thread have been deleted.

[DimensionWarped]

You aren't making original materials for yourself, you are making them because you want to make a product of superior quality to be enjoyed by others. You shouldn't forget that fact. We are in this hobby ultimately because we want to be entertainers.

[Slingerland]

You aren't making original materials for yourself, you are making them because you want to make a product of superior quality to be enjoyed by others. You shouldn't forget that fact. We are in this hobby ultimately because we want to be entertainers.

I making it for me, so that you can enjoy a product that was made by me. Isn't that the whole point of creating your own game? To make something of your own design? I thought that was understood in the subtext of that sentence, but I guess not.

[DimensionWarped]

The distinction is irrelevant. Either way it isn't just for you.

[Slingerland]

The satisfaction of creating my own game is for you then? I don't get what you're talking about. Yeah, I make it so that people will enjoy it and be entertained, but I think I wouldn't even be doing this stuff if I didn't enjoy it first.

Why should I have to compete with myself because somebody wanted to use my stuff without permission? The people who make original stuff want their project to be noticed and be better than the others out there. They don't deserve to have their stuff stolen because they want to use a little thing called effort.

[Sparks]

The distinction is irrelevant. Either way it isn't just for you.

"No Slinger you are not making this game for you, you are making it for other people. I READ YOUR MIND. I KNOW YOU. DO NOT DENY MY TRUTH. DANCE PUPPET DANCE."

[Rael0505]

I just want to reiterate myself and say that some of my backgrounds are a result of years of work.

See this background? This is what it looks like as of a few months ago. And hell, it's still not complete.

Here's another screen of it showing more of the background with the mountains/water. It's a little older (as you can see with the snow palette, yuck), but it's still fairly recent.

THIS is what it looked like in 2007, when I first started it.

And take a look at the indoor background:

This is as of a few months ago.

This is what it looked like a year ago, when I first started it.

See how much it's evolved since I started it? What I have now is literally a result of YEARS of work and constant modification of the original attempt. And it looks much better than it did because of that. I don't want someone using it without my permission (especially if my project hasn't even been released yet) if I've put years of work into it. I'm not SEGA, I don't crank this shit out. I don't want my game to be in competition with that of someone who is using my graphics against my wishes.

Edit: and to clarify, this is not the only background that is a result of years of work. All of my work is. I could post more before-and-after's, but I'm frankly worried of posting any more because you might just steal it.

[Nieves]

Tyraelasaurus

I too agree people should be protected from others when they are at risk of being competed against with their own resources.

Except, you made the (grammatical) subject of that sentence *someone else. Those people have no right to put their protection on someone else's shoulders. Protect it yourself. Expose it to circles you trust. Releasing your content to the public after completion is a good idea you mentioned.

You missed the point about Rome. Yes I do get annoyed at what I call bad driving. Romans do not, because it's not bad driving. Where I come from the traffic is great, but a Roman would find it a waste and run a muck. Where I am now, pushing cars aside as you park is normal. Double parking and blocking someone in temporarily is normal. Positives are seen and it is accepted.

As I said to Ila, this is not within the scope of this community. I don't need to be a member here for this subject to exist. I am not talking about any behind-the-scenes content.

Dimension Warped

I agree completely so maybe you misread or I miswrote. But yes, agree completely.

hRook

I'm not being dramatic hRook, but calling me a bitch is. I'm making the point that when you put your music online for everyone to download, no-one had to agree with you about how they'd use it for their personal interests. I'm not making a game for the community, I'm making a game the community might look at but more importantly, my friends and family (namely, cousins) will look at. It will probably pass that the community sees it too, and you could complain about resources being used. I will simply say that you made it available, I'm using it for my personal interests. I might respect your wishes, but I don't respect Sega's, Rihanna's, Cadbury's nor the wishes of any other source of free content. You think you're different because you're used to this community's mindset and allow yourself to be lazy about it while you expose your content to the same world as Sega, Rihanna and Cadbury.

Rawr

The very simple difference is that for there to be rules, there must a need to agree to those rules. No-one who makes their work public here bothers. I'm not going to carry your rules if you can't try to yourself.

Slingerland

You said you were a mod. You just showed the whole board that it's ok for you to insult others.

Your reply is so short because you haven't shown thought of the other side. I think if your work is important to you and you let other people use it before you do, that's a little silly. Then to really complain when it happens... is more.

My points at the end? You feel that an action is wrong, but the people you expose your work to are not you. You are wrong to assume they feel the same way. You can recognise that in advance, correct? You are then lazy to put your responsibility for your work on the shoulders of people who aren't bothered. Then to attack them.

You can always protect your work. Blame yourself.

Thanks for the clarification on the thread position though. And thanks for reading through my wall post heh.

Rael

Looks fantastic. If I could make my game better with that, I would use it. Unfortunately you've only shown a couple of screens here. Smart.

The thing is really, I want particular people to see this game and they're not you guys. Now the idea of something that would really lift my game being excluded, for someone as close to me as Bill Gates, is not an idea I accept. I want to make a sweet game, for myself.

I often feel "No, don't want to use that because it's in so-and-so's game." Then I remember, what a waste it would be to let that pull things down. I have to actively remind myself to ignore the community in order to allow my game to be the best thing possible. I won't compete with this community; that would only cause my game to be valued by your terms and this whole no-copying business would clip its wings. I write it for people that love classic Sonic but are also in a fangame-free vaccum.

You guys might see the output, if not here, on Youtube. I am just saying that you can look at is as a thing apart from this community, with content you might have made. You can complain but it was always your responsibility to protect. You call it so important, but you don't protect it from the entire internet. It's much easier to allow yourself to release some content, and accept that viewers could use it. Accept it for some content, guard the rest.

[DimensionWarped]

The satisfaction of creating my own game is for you then? I don't get what you're talking about. Yeah, I make it so that people will enjoy it and be entertained, but I think I wouldn't even be doing this stuff if I didn't enjoy it first.

Why should I have to compete with myself because somebody wanted to use my stuff without permission? The people who make original stuff want their project to be noticed and be better than the others out there. They don't deserve to have their stuff stolen because they want to use a little thing called effort.

If it were just the satisfaction of making your own game, you'd be satisfied just making something of whatever quality level and enjoying it. Some people are like that. You fit squarely into the other category of us though. The ones who try to make something that is better than what other people are making. More original content, more authenticity, more everything. You might be able to say "oh, but it's about the satisfaction I get when others appreciate my work", but it all comes out of a desire to please. We want to be appreciated and we want to think there is something we did to deserve that appreciation and there is certainly nothing wrong with that.

As for effort, yes, you should expect to be appreciated for exactly how much effort you put into something. Someone using your assets for their own purposes does nothing to change that and this whole hobby is different things to different people. Not everyone is in it to amaze people. But they always get exactly out of it the effort they put into it.

"No Slinger you are not making this game for you, you are making it for other people. I READ YOUR MIND. I KNOW YOU. DO NOT DENY MY TRUTH. DANCE PUPPET DANCE."

Did you ever think for a moment that yes, in this context, I do know him? Probably better than any of the other people in this community when it comes to what was guiding him though the whole process of making his game anyway. I was right there along side him sniping at every criticism planning every little promotion for quite a while. He's one of the few people here I'd actually call a real friend and not just an Internet friend in spite of everything.

[Sparks]

I'm really reading this, and I'm getting the strong implication you're telling us to think of the view point of others, but you don't do it yourself.

[Rawr]

Rawr

The very simple difference is that for there to be rules, there must a need to agree to those rules. No-one who makes their work public here bothers. I'm not going to carry your rules if you can't try to yourself.

Which is why I make all my graphics and if I am going to use something from someone else I ask for their permission before using it. So I am indeed carrying my own rules.

I'm really reading this, and I'm getting the strong implication you're telling us to think of the view point of others, but you don't do it yourself.

I'm getting the vibe that basically he is saying that he doesn't have to follow what we say, but yet is trying to convince us to see his point his way. So pretty much I guess I'm done with this thread, why didn't I see it before? This is obviously not going to go anywhere. He is going to keep what he is doing and we're gonna keep doing what we do, and we're all just wasting our time here now . I think this thread has accumulated 4 pages too many (for me anyway, depends on what you have your settings set to)

[Rael0505]

FYI Tyraelasaurus and Raelnoceros are the same person. I just changed my username again. I don't blame you for not knowing, but I want to clarify because you addressed me as two different people in your post.

So you basically registered here... so you could tell us you were going to steal our work to show your cousins and there's nothing we can do about it? You want to make a good game without doing any fucking work yourself.

But thanks for telling me you like my work enough that you'll steal it. I really fucking appreciate it.

[DimensionWarped]

There is no way to make a good game without doing any work yourself. Doesn't matter how much you steal, borrow, pawn, or beg for.

[BlazeHedgehog]

I think people are entitled to original content that they themselves have made. If I make a sprite for myself, and I say "Please don't use this, this is mine", I expect those wishes to be upheld.

The thing is, nobody at Sega has said that about official game content, and it's not like there's an easy way to contact the original proprietors. Especially when we're talking 15-year-old content, here. If somebody from Dimps or Sonic Team posted and said "Hey, this stuff is off limits", I'm sure some of us would probably honor those wishes.

As for existing ripped content? Who really gives a crap who ripped it. I mean, c'mon. I could go to Mystic Forest Zone, I could go to The Spriter's Resource, I could go to SFGHQ and between those three sites, five or six people have ripped the same set of sprites. How is any one of those people going to know that I'm using their sheet unless I specifically point them out? They aren't, especially when I could have just ripped them myself (and sometimes have to - I'm surprised at how many incomplete sets there are of certain things).

Me saying "Please don't use this" also helps fuel a small degree of competition, which is essential in a creative community. Otherwise, everybody would be cherry picking the same pre-determined "Best" stuff (or make deliberately ugly games just to stand out from the pack).

[DimensionWarped]

It's in the EULA. No reverse-engineering applies to ripping content.

Anyway, it's just my belief that any attempt for us to prevent others from using what we've worked on is a one-way justification for every big company to squash creative efforts from fans.

[hRook]

I'm not being dramatic hRook, but calling me a bitch is. I'm making the point that when you put your music online for everyone to download, no-one had to agree with you about how they'd use it for their personal interests. I'm not making a game for the community, I'm making a game the community might look at but more importantly, my friends and family (namely, cousins) will look at. It will probably pass that the community sees it too, and you could complain about resources being used. I will simply say that you made it available, I'm using it for my personal interests. I might respect your wishes, but I don't respect Sega's, Rihanna's, Cadbury's nor the wishes of any other source of free content. You think you're different because you're used to this community's mindset and allow yourself to be lazy about it while you expose your content to the same world as Sega, Rihanna and Cadbury.

Are you trying to tell me "I'm going to be using your music whether you like it or not"?

[BlazeHedgehog]

It's in the EULA. No reverse-engineering applies to ripping content.

Anyway, it's just my belief that any attempt for us to prevent others from using what we've worked on is a one-way justification for every big company to squash creative efforts from fans.

Well, yeah, that's the thing. There are some "Hey, don't use this" things, but it's on a faceless corporation level. You don't have any individual artist coming here on a personal level telling us to stop.

You also have to keep in mind that if you steal a person's content, you are likely discouraging that user to keep producing content, leaving you with nothing to steal.

[Rael0505]

Nieves, keep in mind that Hunter's (hrook) music is something he made completely from scratch and something he OWNS the rights to. So far your only argument has been "well you guys take SEGA's graphics sometimes so you can't be mad if I take yours too" but that really doesn't apply here.

I still think you're a prick who can't do anything decent himself so he wants it to be okay to steal everyone else's hard work. Congratulations.

[Slingerland]

Slingerland

You said you were a mod. You just showed the whole board your willingness to allow yourself to insult others.

Your reply is so short because you haven't shown thought of the other side. I think if your work is important to you and you let other people use it before you do, that's a little silly. Then to really complain when it happens... is more.

My points at the end? You feel that an action is wrong, but the people you expose your work to are not you. You are wrong to assume they feel the same way. You can recognise that in advance. You are then lazy to put your responsibility for your work on the shoulders of people who aren't bothered. Then to attack them.

What are you even talking about? Seriously. You don't make any sense! All I'm reading is a wall of text that could be boiled down into one sentence:

I can't make my own stuff, so I'm stealing everybody else's.

People post their stuff here all the time to receive comments to improve it. We have had a case before where a person posted previews to receive criticism and somebody lifted it for themselves. That's just plain wrong on the most basic level. It's just understood by everybody that you just don't steal out of respect. Obviously, you lack respect and that's incredibly sad. Also, when shit like that happens, people are discouraged to post stuff here and then what would we be left with as a fangaming forum? People like you. Wow, that would suck.

And please, I think you're being incredibly childish by referencing my language towards you as a reason to disregard what I have to say. Grow the fuck up and deal with it (in b4 u say "NO U GROW UP MR SWEARWORDZ"). You're acting like some kind of moral superior, a champion of debate and squeaky clean language. Yet, here you are condoning theft, something that's also considered morally wrong.

You can always protect your work. Blame yourself.

Nobody has stolen anything of mine that's currently in use. Blame myself? I keep it under lock and key. It's protected from turds like you. Any situation that I'm discussing is purely hypothetical. Hunter's Nexus music isn't even for download anyway. You can listen to it, but if you're using it... it's without his permission and he will probably kick your fucking teeth down to your colon.

In my opinion, you've got one more reply to just "wow" me before I put the lid on this discussion. Our forums prohibit stealing materials and that's that. Your text assault is pretty incomprehensible and stupid, lacking any and all decency for fellow creators.

Who knows? You might just learn a thing or two along the way. Are you really going to be proud of something that is the product of stealing from people more talented than you? If you want to show your cousins something, then just show them the games that you're stealing from. That'll take less time to do.

In short, stop being a dick and make your own stuff.

[Rael0505]

Are you really going to be proud of something that is the product of stealing from people more talented than you? If you want to show your cousins something, then just show them the games that you're stealing from. That'll take less time to do.

LOL I love you Brad. That's so true.

Have fun making something that's not a product of your own efforts, Nieves.

edit: and another thing

Also, when shit like that happens, people are discouraged to post stuff here and then what would we be left with as a fangaming forum? People like you. Wow, that would suck.

Yeah, Nieves, you're basically saying "it's your fault for not protecting something if you don't want other people to use it." I don't want someone on my forum who's threatening to steal anything we post, and discouraging us from sharing our work to give feedback and critique. The entire staff is THIS close to banning you and blocking your IP address. Hell, even DW, who more or less agrees with your opinion, says you're a prick. You have no friends here.

[Rawr]

I'm getting the vibe that basically he is saying that he doesn't have to follow what we say, but yet is trying to convince us to see his point his way. So pretty much I guess I'm done with this thread, why didn't I see it before? This is obviously not going to go anywhere. He is going to keep what he is doing and we're gonna keep doing what we do, and we're all just wasting our time here now .

Like I said guys, this is going to go nowhere haha. Maybe we should just make this community invite only and that'll solve his problem with what we do roflroflrofl.

[DimensionWarped]

Well, yeah, that's the thing. There are some "Hey, don't use this" things, but it's on a faceless corporation level. You don't have any individual artist coming here on a personal level telling us to stop.

You also have to keep in mind that if you steal a person's content, you are likely discouraging that user to keep producing content, leaving you with nothing to steal.

Those artists don't have the right to say what we can and can't use though. They don't own the art. That faceless, mouthless corporation does.

And yeah, thats why I'm more against the actual having of the wishes than the respect towards those wishes. If it were up to me, everything that you can get your hands on would be up for grabs the minute the project is declared as finished.