Nieves

Just to say it again. This is your chance to discuss it with someone you can dislike. Banning me will only remove that. It won't protect anything on these boards from anyone on the net. Rael, if I was just a mooch I must have a pretty rotten idea of what a good game is. You don't need to assume that. Gameplay is my focus, none of which is what we call content. I think a game with great content and just-another-rough-Sonic gameplay and structure is an utter waste of time.

lol Rael, ok cool. Sparks Not far from what you said. Don't consider the views of others, simply recognise that they don't have to be yours. From there, look after your interests as you wish. Rawr By carrying I mean carrying the enforcing. If you make your work available for others to copy, with no mechanisms of controlling that, that is you not carrying your responsibility. But you are correct, I am wanting you guys to see my point. Because this really is a matter of "different strokes" and I'd like at least some people to recognise that this isn't about anything negative I'm doing, but a different positive that you guys generally don't think of. Just like double parking. Once a reader can see the real positive of both sides, they will have to admit I have a point and are then free to choose which concept they prefer (it looks like competition is a big factor here). Copying some content is not the only way to go, but it has some good ideals. Rael Flip, there's so much I have to do. How could it be a good game otherwise? My attention is on the gameplay though. BlazeHedgehog You are entitled to it. But to expect a random to not use your sprites is not realistic or responsible. Remember again, I am just a random and I'm not competing with this community. hRook Not will, would if it lifted my game. Same as Eminem. Except Eminem doesn't deliberately make his music freely available. Rael (again) No, my argument is that there is more positive than most people here will acknowledge. To recognise it, remove the idea you all have of competition for a start. I guess it's like saying "I made a Beyonce mix but it's not like I'm gonna upstage Beyonce with it." I refer to Sega/Rihanna/etc not to justify the copying, but to point out that you too adjust your morals for situations as they suit you. Slingerland If you don't understand something I say, you can ask for clarification. Your insults don't bother me of course; I referred to your language to highlight your lack of leadership or respect as a mod. Look at your post. Look at everyone else's. Yours has the most hot air because everyone else is careful with flaming and drama while you know you don't have to be. It's not a childish attack on you, it's me saying "Protect this thread, don't run it down yourself." The mod being the one to break a thread is not a good sign. All you have to do to protect the work of posted content is make a private forum. You're attacking me when I'm just one from the internet and it has happened before you say. No-one needs to agree to anything to read these boards. So why not create a setup where there is an agreement. A private board for previewing stuff. Then you have a rule that can be enforced. Not perfectly, but compared to 100% visible... a lot better. Again I... Well first I don't know what you're reading but I have commented on your idea of stealing several times already. And once again, morally wrong is your belief. I see that you've given me a time limit here so I am going to put it on you. Do you honestly not understand the idea that others don't follow your right and wrong? That a person has no right thinking others agree with his beliefs? People present their work here with no agreement from the outside viewers. Please comment on some of the things I have written instead of just repeating your view with bigger expressions. Can you understand what I'm saying first, then dismiss it second? And after all that, you do protect your work. I'm glad you prefer that kind of care. I had no idea about Hunter's music or how available it is. I don't have it.. I don't have anything. But he already said I could stick it on my iRiver. But really... your reactions. Come on man, cool it and let the chat continue. To finish the reply to you, I ask again that you try to recognise my side before writing more about your astonishment. You can ask for clarifications, no problems. If you like, this is a chance for "one of them" to be freely discussing this topic on your boards, if they can handle it. If you kill the topic I don't change; the issue doesn't change, but now it can't even be spoken about. I also remind you of that private forum idea. I guess it has been considered before, so what happened with that? A system that lets people in would give more security and freedom I think.

Tyraelasaurus I too agree people should be protected from others when they are at risk of being competed against with their own resources. Except, you made the (grammatical) subject of that sentence *someone else. Those people have no right to put their protection on someone else's shoulders. Protect it yourself. Expose it to circles you trust. Releasing your content to the public after completion is a good idea you mentioned. You missed the point about Rome. Yes I do get annoyed at what I call bad driving. Romans do not, because it's not bad driving. Where I come from the traffic is great, but a Roman would find it a waste and run a muck. Where I am now, pushing cars aside as you park is normal. Double parking and blocking someone in temporarily is normal. Positives are seen and it is accepted. As I said to Ila, this is not within the scope of this community. I don't need to be a member here for this subject to exist. I am not talking about any behind-the-scenes content. Dimension Warped I agree completely so maybe you misread or I miswrote. But yes, agree completely. hRook I'm not being dramatic hRook, but calling me a bitch is. I'm making the point that when you put your music online for everyone to download, no-one had to agree with you about how they'd use it for their personal interests. I'm not making a game for the community, I'm making a game the community might look at but more importantly, my friends and family (namely, cousins) will look at. It will probably pass that the community sees it too, and you could complain about resources being used. I will simply say that you made it available, I'm using it for my personal interests. I might respect your wishes, but I don't respect Sega's, Rihanna's, Cadbury's nor the wishes of any other source of free content. You think you're different because you're used to this community's mindset and allow yourself to be lazy about it while you expose your content to the same world as Sega, Rihanna and Cadbury. Rawr The very simple difference is that for there to be rules, there must a need to agree to those rules. No-one who makes their work public here bothers. I'm not going to carry your rules if you can't try to yourself. Slingerland You said you were a mod. You just showed the whole board that it's ok for you to insult others. Your reply is so short because you haven't shown thought of the other side. I think if your work is important to you and you let other people use it before you do, that's a little silly. Then to really complain when it happens... is more. My points at the end? You feel that an action is wrong, but the people you expose your work to are not you. You are wrong to assume they feel the same way. You can recognise that in advance, correct? You are then lazy to put your responsibility for your work on the shoulders of people who aren't bothered. Then to attack them. You can always protect your work. Blame yourself. Thanks for the clarification on the thread position though. And thanks for reading through my wall post heh. Rael Looks fantastic. If I could make my game better with that, I would use it. Unfortunately you've only shown a couple of screens here. Smart. The thing is really, I want particular people to see this game and they're not you guys. Now the idea of something that would really lift my game being excluded, for someone as close to me as Bill Gates, is not an idea I accept. I want to make a sweet game, for myself. I often feel "No, don't want to use that because it's in so-and-so's game." Then I remember, what a waste it would be to let that pull things down. I have to actively remind myself to ignore the community in order to allow my game to be the best thing possible. I won't compete with this community; that would only cause my game to be valued by your terms and this whole no-copying business would clip its wings. I write it for people that love classic Sonic but are also in a fangame-free vaccum. You guys might see the output, if not here, on Youtube. I am just saying that you can look at is as a thing apart from this community, with content you might have made. You can complain but it was always your responsibility to protect. You call it so important, but you don't protect it from the entire internet. It's much easier to allow yourself to release some content, and accept that viewers could use it. Accept it for some content, guard the rest.

The problem is how much you just used the word "should". Microsoft tells me what I should do all the time. The other point is that you had other options if you wanted to protect your work. And finally, this is not about "around here". This topic is not enclosed by this forum. It's another common point I should add really.

Long post. Currently editing for readability. Only read what applies to you if you like. General stuff separated and a few points at the bottom. Dimension Warped I’m not against creators trying to protect their content. I’m against creators not trying to if they expect to judge others for using it. I agree that giving credit is appreciated but not necessary. I am against taking credit but when it comes to giving it, I only support and encourage, not demand, because I am not about these rules limiting the creation. Tentril I maintain my position that there's nothing wrong with using work as long as I don't take credit for it. This also means that for me it's also important to not give the impression that I created what I didn't and this is what would drive me most towards actually giving credit. Now from that, if someone fails to credit me but has not made it look like their own work, I’m fine. My response is "It would have been nice, but there’s no loss here. At least my work is spreading." My work is just something they used for their own personal project. Asuma I think it would be immature for whomever to want to rip someone’s head off when they didn’t bother to protect them. I don’t take my wallet out on the train and put a $100 note on the seat behind me. Sparks It could help my game. It doesn’t take anything away from you. I use content without permission daily, in many areas of life. You call it unfair because of something you believe in revolving around fangames. You think everyone else believes that too, when there are probably others disappointed at how your belief works. That’s okay, you have the right to feel how you want, but it’s a mistake to assume others follow that. If you feel it would be unfair of someone who doesn’t share your beliefs to use your work, why not protect it? Overbound I’m not justifying stealing; I’m saying what a silly notion. You just have your one perspective but I thank you for not forcing it onto me. Do I steal my housemate’s opera singing when I record it for a mix tape? I’m not justifying being rude; it’s not rude to me. Try driving in Roman traffic – they don’t think it’s rude and have no intention of editing their definition to match yours. I’m not saying people wouldn’t get angry; I’m saying anger is typically not even recognised by people who never subscribed to the rules of the aggressor. It will surely exist because humans often get angry when they’re upset regardless, but to think anger based only on person Y’s view has a case isn’t realistic. What I'm against here is inventing morals for others. What hurts you is because of you. Be responsible for the things you fear will leave you upset. If you genuinely don't want to risk others using your work, what is stopping your from managing how you release it? I use the term "inventing morals" for the people who think they can ignore this responsibility, then judge others who never shared their beliefs. I refer to my PSO example again for this. In PSO Ep1, if you died, you dropped your weapon. Someone else could pick it up and keep it. Once I lost an s-rank to this, and I reacted with what I expect from any situation where there are no controlling rules. It was a bitter loss but I didn't judge him for playing the game as it was meant to be. He never agreed to my rules, and I put my s-rank in the domain of his beliefs. Not everyone has to work my way and I entered that situation of risk by choice. Your “wrong” isn't pre-defined naturally nor is it global, and calling people bad in an effort to make your wrong everyone's wrong is really the mistake. It really is your choice to risk something in a world that never granted you a right to judge people for thinking differently to you. Remember the mix tape again. If you can’t think along those terms you are possibly missing the point of just using content that one finds for personal enjoyment. You guys are following some principle that just doesn't always exist but seems to fire people up when it comes to fan game creation. Really, if someone says "Don't use this" I can happily turn around and say "Well I can see it improving something personal for me and I don't follow your perspective so if you don't want me to use it, take control and put it away." Sorry to drag you closer to the contested side DW, but I think your comment about drawing with impunity is a good one. ________________________________ Tweaker Believing in rights with no basis is what’s ridiculous. We aren’t actually born with a right to shelter, food, or health care. They aren’t natural concepts but ideas created and given by other humans. Your post is a little dramatic. I’d rather have a debate than an argument of emotions. I am against stealing credit. Your last line seems to confuse this. Dimension Warped There can be no criteria for protection if protection can’t be maintained from anyone who isn’t part of the circle. Tweaker This topic is not within the scope of this community. Unwritten rules are followed by those who wish to follow them. No-one is in the wrong for not following them because there is no consequence enforced, thus no agreement stated. Asuma “So, if I ripped a sprite from Nexus (hypothetically speaking, you were the project lead) and used with crediting the Nexus team you'd be okay with that?” Of course. Regardless of whether you meant to write “with” or “without”. I would have protected it otherwise. It’s my responsibility and I wouldn’t think I’m so important that I can make it your responsibility. Wesker Funny point at the end hehehe. Ila I’m not asking to stick around here. As I said to Tweaker, this topic is not within the scope of this community. Slingerland As I said to Overbound, you are not thinking that what you call stealing is simply silly and disappointing to others. Now you’ve used that to throw an insult in this thread. Can you not please. I imagine you might not want to consider what I just wrote, but if you support any kind of positive discussion about difficult topics, you will consider it. Nexus looks great – excellently polished – but I haven’t considered taking anything from it so far. Someone mentioned this was in the trash? I want to say to the mods here that this board needs to be able to handle controversial topics if it wants to think seriously of itself as a forum for discussion and debate. I’m not interested in flaming anyone; I’m expressing my views and allowing everyone to turn them if they have some good points. Or even consider mine. Don’t kill the luxury of expression, don’t make this discussion a victim of angry mods please. We’re using words here. ________________________ hRook Again with the stealing. So I can’t put it on my iRiver? Can I put a Youtube remix of Icecap in my game then? Who is making all these rules, where do I read them, and when did I sign? I think the most commonly misunderstood points are: • that one’s beliefs are automatically shared and this gives one a right to judge • that one’s beliefs are automatically shared and this excuses him/her from being responsible for their own protection • that everyone shares this rather specialised belief of stealing • that this issue is within the community, when anyone can come to this forum, or youtube, or download a fangame, and take content without agreeing to anything Protecting content is the content holder's responsibility.

I intend to create a game and don't want to buy into what looks like the culture of the fangaming scene. Two things happen here. 1. Someone makes their own art or edit and says "Don't use it". People are expected not to use it. 2. Someone makes their own art or edit and says nothing. People are expected not to use it. My opinion is that if you produce something I like, and I reproduce it, there is nothing wrong as long as I don't call it my own work, and as long as I don't prevent you from profiting from it. If I put an official Sonic on a shirt, no problem. If you draw Sonic and I put that on a shirt, no problem. If you draw your own new character and I put that on a t-shirt, no problem. Even if you said not to? Yes, even if you said not to. If you can't handle someone copying it, keep it in private circles. Now that sounds pretty extreme, so here is how I justify it. I'm making this game for me. It's basically a mix tape, except a mix tape is full of other people's work and this will mostly be my work. I don't care why the artists wrote those songs; I just like them so I am reproducing them when I find that enjoyable. So I'm not writing a game to be accepted by some crowd. I'm writing a game for me; the funnest thing I can come up with from all this other stuff I can find, designed in the way I enjoy most. I want people to go "Hey this music is perfect, what is it?" or "This game is sweet! Love the funky sprites!" No, I don't see the benefit in using others' sprites if they don't fit the character of my game. At the same time, for me there is no problem if I did. It would just probably ruin my game. Likewise I would feel no problem if I copied Rihanna, Unleashed, or Nexus for their music. And that's a good comparison. Unleashed music vs Nexus music. Somehow one is ok and the other not? Just to repeat, the difference I'm highlighting is that I'm writing a game for me. From there, other people can look at it if they want. I am not considering legalities in this discussion, unless of course I am threatened with real consequences. Although it only adds to my disinterest in the the whole issue when everyone uses Sega's for-profit work yet is irked by someone using their non-profit edits. What I see is a bunch of guys not wanting someone else to take rewards from their hard work - understandable - yet at the same time believing they can judge someone for using it for their own purposes once it has been made copyable. It's completely fine for the creator/editor to be disgruntled, but not judgemental. Don't die in PSO Ep1 if you're going to cart your big toys around. That's my position. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise if someone can but I believe my perspective is solid. I guess if you're sensitive to this issue you wouldn't enjoy my game, but that is exactly what I won't let pull my game down.