Sonic Generations Thread

[tentril]

http://nintendo3dsblog.com/first-screenshots-of-sonic-generations-3ds#more-611539038

There you go. Theres like ten screens.

[Serephim]

No, I said Sonic Heroes lacks good level design. I never said it lacks iconic stages. And I agree with you, Unleashed's levels lack a variety in approach. That's why I didn't like Unleashed and that's why I did like Colors.

I disagree. I'd say Heroes was the last game with any decent level design, and definitely the last game to use anywhere close to a "classical" sonic design.

Heroes did what the genesis games did -- take a theme for a level, build gimmicks around it, and use them throughout the stage. It kept you in control of your characters for pretty much the whole level, until you went on a speed segment with loops and stuff. (Which was understandable.)

The only gimmicks reused throughout the stages were the swing poles, trick rings and rails, but unlike the Sonic Games to follow, EVERY stage did not include rails, and if they DID, they either a) changed them up or did not spam them so pathetically. At least, i know Seaside Hill, Ocean Palace, and the 2 casino stages didn't. The forest stages used them, but only for vines and awe segments -- pretty much the same way SA2 used them. If you just HATED the combat segment of heroes, then sure, it was a pretty bad game. But there was almost always more than the usual way to destroy an enemy. And by the time you had someone at lv3, everything died in one hit anyway. I'll admit that some of the glitches were quite annoying, and that every team that wasnt Team Sonic or Dark was absolutely useless. The two Casino stages also got VERY annoying because of the physics, but honestly they were so cool looking i didn't really mind. And outside of the shitty pinball physics, some of the stuff was pretty fun to blast through.

Unleashed (and, from what i've seen in the modern section demo, Generations) gives you a linear path to run on in 3D, before giving you a twisty rail segment followed by 2D platforming. And, oddly enough, the 2D sections spam rails too. You almost never get to REALLY control sonic in 3D, because you're either dashing down a path or grinding. Anyway, playing through both games again, Unleashed certiantly LOOKS better, but even with all of its graphical flare, Sonic Heroes achieved much better "awe" segments with the speed and scripted segments they place you in. The two rail levels in Heroes are about a trillion times more fun than any level in Unleashed.

I can't speak for Colors very much, but it looks like it did a bit better. But honestly, when im playing a console Sonic game with 3D graphics, i'd MUCH rather control him in 3D than in 2D. All the segments done in 2D can just as easily be done in 3D with altered camera views. Im starting to believe the only reason there are more 2D segments in modern sonic than 3D is because they're getting really lazy with it.

I dont want to play a "modern" Green Hill Zone where the whole level is rails and 2D rails. I'd like to....you know...make use of that 3D engine? Whats the point when you already have a "classical" mode of the stage....I feel like the "modern" sections of this game are going to be a HUGE waste of graphical power.

[GreenCUB3D]

Nice to the Launch Base boss in 3D, and with a new move. Now all we need is some footage of a new zone for the consel versions.

[Ristar]

haha, what a coincidence, just defeated that boss on Ultimate Megadrive Collection on PS3 this evening.

looks like it'll be cool, but I hate that fucking boss anyway so we'll see.

fucking collision boxes.

[Rawr]

I love that boss, I'd really like to hear what the modern remix of its track would sound like (assuming that boss themes also get the same treatment).

[Scarletdark]

http://nintendo3dsblog.com/first-screenshots-of-sonic-generations-3ds#more-611539038

[qimg]http://nintendo3ds.davidturnbull.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Sonic-Generations-8.jpg[/qimg]

There you go. Theres like ten screens.

Thanks for the screens bro.

I find it really difficult to see if the game will have good graphics or not on the 3ds.

It looks pixelated, but I know that it will look awesome on the small screen AND in 3d so..... Hopefully it looks awesome.

[Sparks]

That boss is going to play like a Rush boss, and it'll hit like a Rush boss, complete with how they bounce back and have that Rush hit sfx, and minus visuals, it probably won't be much like how it did in the Genesis games (except grab you with its arms then slam you down without a doubt).

It's up to you if this is a bad thing or not.

[Kirs]

Not on topic, but I agree with what Serephim said about Sonic Heroes. Nice to see that there's someone that shares your point of view : /

[MalcomX]

http://nintendo3dsblog.com/first-screenshots-of-sonic-generations-3ds#more-611539038

[qimg]http://nintendo3ds.davidturnbull.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Sonic-Generations-8.jpg[/qimg]

There you go. Theres like ten screens.

Cant put a finger on it but something looks completely weird in this pic.

[Ristar]

I think it's sonic. he's sort of... wrong.

[DimensionWarped]

I disagree. I'd say Heroes was the last game with any decent level design, and definitely the last game to use anywhere close to a "classical" sonic design.

Heroes did what the genesis games did -- take a theme for a level, build gimmicks around it, and use them throughout the stage. It kept you in control of your characters for pretty much the whole level, until you went on a speed segment with loops and stuff. (Which was understandable.)

The only gimmicks reused throughout the stages were the swing poles, trick rings and rails, but unlike the Sonic Games to follow, EVERY stage did not include rails, and if they DID, they either a) changed them up or did not spam them so pathetically. At least, i know Seaside Hill, Ocean Palace, and the 2 casino stages didn't. The forest stages used them, but only for vines and awe segments -- pretty much the same way SA2 used them. If you just HATED the combat segment of heroes, then sure, it was a pretty bad game. But there was almost always more than the usual way to destroy an enemy. And by the time you had someone at lv3, everything died in one hit anyway. I'll admit that some of the glitches were quite annoying, and that every team that wasnt Team Sonic or Dark was absolutely useless. The two Casino stages also got VERY annoying because of the physics, but honestly they were so cool looking i didn't really mind. And outside of the shitty pinball physics, some of the stuff was pretty fun to blast through.

Unleashed (and, from what i've seen in the modern section demo, Generations) gives you a linear path to run on in 3D, before giving you a twisty rail segment followed by 2D platforming. And, oddly enough, the 2D sections spam rails too. You almost never get to REALLY control sonic in 3D, because you're either dashing down a path or grinding. Anyway, playing through both games again, Unleashed certiantly LOOKS better, but even with all of its graphical flare, Sonic Heroes achieved much better "awe" segments with the speed and scripted segments they place you in. The two rail levels in Heroes are about a trillion times more fun than any level in Unleashed.

I can't speak for Colors very much, but it looks like it did a bit better. But honestly, when im playing a console Sonic game with 3D graphics, i'd MUCH rather control him in 3D than in 2D. All the segments done in 2D can just as easily be done in 3D with altered camera views. Im starting to believe the only reason there are more 2D segments in modern sonic than 3D is because they're getting really lazy with it.

I dont want to play a "modern" Green Hill Zone where the whole level is rails and 2D rails. I'd like to....you know...make use of that 3D engine? Whats the point when you already have a "classical" mode of the stage....I feel like the "modern" sections of this game are going to be a HUGE waste of graphical power.

The reason they have started doing more with 2D is because they realize that 2D just works better with a game like Sonic, not because it's lazy. If you can accomplish a goal while pleasing your fanbase and simultaneously satisfying the bullshit rules of convention that your game has to be to some degree in 3D, all the more power to you. The green hill statement though, that's just silly. It's not like every 2D Sonic stage was Green Hill or even remotely similar to Green Hill. When you have 2D segments that end up being just like green hill zone, that's just some general failing on part of the level designer... usually brought on by a failure to understand that the series isn't defined by green hill zone, which hey, who can blame them when we see the angle SEGA pushes with every new game. And you need to play Colors, because if you did you'd realize that none of the stages in that game have 2D segments that really resemble much of anything from traditional Sonic, but they stand out on their own and are pretty good for it.

And I don't think Sonic Heroes level design fails because it lacks some adherence to tradition, it fails because it's just too big and empty. There are so many segments that just drag for around 30 seconds with no real requirement for player input that it's just impossible to stay engaged with the game. And you are wrong about the rails in the sense that by the time you are past the first zone, rails start popping up at least in every zone (that's a two stage block) and by the time you are past Bingo Highway, they are just plain omnipresent. Worst part is that in the two zones in which they are most prevalent (Rail Canyon / Final Fortress), they have the largest amount of rails that do nothing but dangle over empty sky for about 30 seconds in an effort to bridge you from one minor challenge to the next and the whole effect was to create nausea-inducing tediousness.

But really, that's the whole problem with Sonic Heroes. It's too empty and too spacious to keep you engaged and all that it has to keep you going is a constant distraction of pretty colors and shifting camera from the constant change in slope of the terrain, and oddly enough that's the exact opposite problem Shadow the Hedgehog had (which was busy to the point of being excessively cluttered and very lacking in a sense of beauty that defines the franchise, at least when it wasn't just being an uglier Sonic Heroes, which was admittedly a large chunk of the neutral path) and that's why you have this divisive split over which was the better bad game.

And if anyone is flustered that we always seem to get into these Heroes vs whatever else analyses every time a new Sonic game is coming out, don't be. Sonic Heroes was a turning point for the franchise and it really does us a lot of good as a community to be able to look at the shortcomings of turning point games and to figure out what we want from the series in the long run.

[Mobiethian]

Cant put a finger on it but something looks completely weird in this pic.

The fish "chopper" badnik, it appears to be half on and off of the bridge.

[Candescence]

Dimension mentioned Colours' 2D sections. I remembered that I hadn't spoken my mind about those.

I HATED the 2D sections. Ironically, this had nothing to do with the level design. What enjoyment I could've had with the 2D sections was more or less killed off by the fact that the controls are unbearably loose. I've lost count as to how many times I've died trying to jump across platforms because the controls are so incredibly unsuited to precise platforming. And no, I do not suck at platformers, this is coming from a guy who nearly beat IWBTG (The Guy himself being the only barrier). It's one of several things that Colours did WORSE than Unleashed.

Honestly, when Sonic Team can't even improve on Unleashed's gameplay without making other things about said gameplay worse, it makes me highly pessimistic about Generations.

[DimensionWarped]

Unleashed also had roughly the same shitty 2D controls as I recall, it just didn't demand as much of you during those segments. But yes, I was speaking specifically over the actual level design and ignoring how hard Sonic was to steer.

[Candescence]

PFFT. No bloody wonder. So it turns out Sonic Team aren't any better at 2D controls than Dimps are. Hilariou-

Um... That's not a good sign for Classic Sonic in Generations, is it.

[Asuma]

The controls were just fine to me in Colors. I honestly don't see the big deal.

[VectorSatyr]

I don't get it, either. I adjusted well enough to the them that I was only dying when the damn homing attack beamed me towards an enemy off-screen or I mistimed a super-boost across a chasm. Yeah, I could have done without those minor annoyances but overall I found controlling Sonic to be quite painless in the game, I just can't relate.

[Serephim]

The reason they have started doing more with 2D is because they realize that 2D just works better with a game like Sonic, not because it's lazy. If you can accomplish a goal while pleasing your fanbase and simultaneously satisfying the bullshit rules of convention that your game has to be to some degree in 3D, all the more power to you. The green hill statement though, that's just silly. It's not like every 2D Sonic stage was Green Hill or even remotely similar to Green Hill. When you have 2D segments that end up being just like green hill zone, that's just some general failing on part of the level designer... usually brought on by a failure to understand that the series isn't defined by green hill zone, which hey, who can blame them when we see the angle SEGA pushes with every new game. And you need to play Colors, because if you did you'd realize that none of the stages in that game have 2D segments that really resemble much of anything from traditional Sonic, but they stand out on their own and are pretty good for it.

And I don't think Sonic Heroes level design fails because it lacks some adherence to tradition, it fails because it's just too big and empty. There are so many segments that just drag for around 30 seconds with no real requirement for player input that it's just impossible to stay engaged with the game. And you are wrong about the rails in the sense that by the time you are past the first zone, rails start popping up at least in every zone (that's a two stage block) and by the time you are past Bingo Highway, they are just plain omnipresent. Worst part is that in the two zones in which they are most prevalent (Rail Canyon / Final Fortress), they have the largest amount of rails that do nothing but dangle over empty sky for about 30 seconds in an effort to bridge you from one minor challenge to the next and the whole effect was to create nausea-inducing tediousness.

But really, that's the whole problem with Sonic Heroes. It's too empty and too spacious to keep you engaged and all that it has to keep you going is a constant distraction of pretty colors and shifting camera from the constant change in slope of the terrain, and oddly enough that's the exact opposite problem Shadow the Hedgehog had (which was busy to the point of being excessively cluttered and very lacking in a sense of beauty that defines the franchise, at least when it wasn't just being an uglier Sonic Heroes, which was admittedly a large chunk of the neutral path) and that's why you have this divisive split over which was the better bad game.

And if anyone is flustered that we always seem to get into these Heroes vs whatever else analyses every time a new Sonic game is coming out, don't be. Sonic Heroes was a turning point for the franchise and it really does us a lot of good as a community to be able to look at the shortcomings of turning point games and to figure out what we want from the series in the long run.

I'd never call Heroes an empty game. Drawn out, yes, but most definitely not empty, i dont know where you're getting that from.

And i call the 2D sections of the game "lazy' because thats just how they feel. 3D works fine for this franchise, as long as they design the game right. But if you're going to allow sonic to accelerate from 0 to 200 MPH with the press of a button, then of course 3D isn't going to work too well. At least, not for anything but running your head through walls.

And you misunderstood me about the green hill comment. I'd assume the point of even including Green Hill is for the nostalgia factor the level gives you. It's neat to take the 16 bit version of the level, translate the environments to 3D, and then let you experience it in a new way. But instead of letting you explore the pretty BGs you see in the classical version of the generations gameplay, they just stick you on a straight path that blasts along, before putting you on a 2D section that includes like a few jumps, right before putting you on a rail. (Which doesn't even include balancing to keep speed anymore thanks to boost. And to top it off, the rail segments themselves aren't even interesting, since they're basically just straight lines now.

Colors did good with the 2D sections because they took it and built on it to make it decent. What makes anyone think they couldn't do the same kind of overhaul with the 3D portions? It's no different. Where there would be a 2D section in colors, you have 3D platforming. Where it would be 3D speed in colors, you have 3D speed sections.

These are just my opinions anyway. Im still going to need some more footage on generations, but honestly I just dont see the point in modernizing an old genesis level just to saturate it with rails and on-rail level design...We have a "classical" sonic mode, so i just see no point in 2D sonic segments in the 3D modes. It just feels restricting.

[DimensionWarped]

I'd never call Heroes an empty game. Drawn out, yes, but most definitely not empty, i dont know where you're getting that from.

It's very empty. Downright vacuous. I'd say roughly 5% of your time spent in every level is actually transcending obstacles with the rest of it consisting of you staring blankly forward waiting for the next major platforming segment to pop up while occasionally having an opportunity to bounce on a roaming pawn. There are a couple exceptions I guess, but they are few and far between.

The controls were just fine to me in Colors. I honestly don't see the big deal.

Oh, I take it that basic platforming gimmicks like the ski lift type platforms in Planet Wisp gave you no trouble then right? Well, they tore me a new ass.

[Sparks]

I rarely found myself dieing due to 2D platforming in Colors. The only times I really had an issue was getting a jump right in Aquarium Park (but it was a 3D section anyway), and one act in Asteroid Coaster that had a bunch of spikes, those yellow springs, and then those stupid smashers, and a combo of spike wisp and cube wisp. Every other stage I went through pretty easy. Didn't have much of an issue gameplay wise finding the red rings either. Maybe it's a muscle reflex thing or something, I dunno. People can like Colors or don't like it.

Also Heroes had poor level layout in my opinion. Bottomless pits were too easy to fall into (never got past the fourth zone).

[DimensionWarped]

I liked Colors a lot, but there's no denying I think that things start to fall apart in the 2D segments when it comes to precision platforming. Fortunately precision platforming is fairly rare in Colors, but I'm not sure that's a good thing.

[Serephim]

It's very empty. Downright vacuous. I'd say roughly 5% of your time spent in every level is actually transcending obstacles with the rest of it consisting of you staring blankly forward waiting for the next major platforming segment to pop up while occasionally having an opportunity to bounce on a roaming pawn. There are a couple exceptions I guess, but they are few and far between.

Wow. I'd ask when the last time you played this game was, but i dont think about amount of conversation will reverse your apparent hatred for this title...

[DimensionWarped]

Roughly a year ago. And I don't hate the game, I just find it dreadfully dull.

[Serephim]

I disliked it too. Until i randomly decided to download it for PC and play it over.

I'd say Heroes was the last game, up until unleashed, that had a genuine feeling of "well, we tried" in it from Sonic Team. And playing through with Team Sonic anyway, im actually enjoying it alot. It's not that it was a SUPER AMAZING game, but i think it's funny looking at what the sonic fans are bitching about now, vs. what they were bitching about when Heroes was released. It's just way worse now than it was then imo.

It isn't without it's problems, but i'd take Heroes' shortcomings over Unleashed's anyday. At least i get to explore the worlds from a different fucking angle for a change.

[DimensionWarped]

I think that the art department certainly tried with Heroes, and I can see why if exploration is the biggest draw that you would be led to like Heroes over some of the other games, but the ability to look over a scene from an innumerable amount of perspectives just isn't the draw for me. The discoveries I'm looking for are things like inclines I can use but didn't notice before, new pathways with their own take on the level, a hidden alcove with an easter egg and maybe a box or two. Unleashed seems to have an approach that is way too strict for that sort of thing to work, but with Colors at least I was pleasantly surprised to find that I was able to keep finding new things of some consequence just by playing a little differently. I still greatly prefer the classic titles of course, because there is just something to be said about the way you move through each curve that makes them superior in so many ways, but Colors pleases the senses in its own way, and it got that way by building out from a game I disliked... not unlike Shadow built out from something I disliked and ultimately because something I could enjoy, if not fully due to the just glaringly bad design choices (specifically about half of the mission objectives) at times.

As for the exploration angle in Unleashed, I think the werehog stages were supposed to compensate for that in Unleashed, but of course I know it's hardly compensation to be slogged down by what basically equates to zigzagging between generic platforming and generic brawling.