Sonic Frenzy Adventure vids- new level: AEZ 1-2

[Blue Frenzy]

Well for breaking the ice, nothing is better than a few rockets, so i leave here a vid of Athlon empire zone BOTH ACTS.

Also shows 4th special stage. It has nothing special, like the 1st one, but it is much more complete and hard.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=rExsGJLSfFA

[Slingerland]

Eh...Athlon Empire seems to just throw you into gimmick after gimmick after gimmick. It's the same problem as before: over saturation of stage elements. There's really no chance for exploration from what I observe in that video. The level runs itself for the most part, with the player occasionally pressing down to use that platform or the jump button to leap off of those circular gear gimmicks from Metallic Madness.

Now, the "tank" segment in act 2 is wicked cool, but it goes on for far too long. Also, the walls of ascending bumpers in act 2, while a few dozen rockets fire at you from below, goes on for an unnecessarily long time.

(and a side note concerning graphics: the layering on the vertical corkscrew is non-existent, but I'm sure you knew that already)

(and a side note concerning music: it's terrible)

[Blue Frenzy]

Eh...Athlon Empire seems to just throw you into gimmick after gimmick after gimmick. It's the same problem as before: over saturation of stage elements. There's really no chance for exploration from what I observe in that video. The level runs itself for the most part, with the player occasionally pressing down to use that platform or the jump button to leap off of those circular gear gimmicks from Metallic Madness.

Sure there is no chance for exploration? I think you missed lots of things, else, our concepts of exploration are different.

BTW, i surrender. Im not good for this. I will release sfa as a bunch of levels and done. I do not want to work anymore on fangaming.

[Slingerland]

Sure there is no chance for exploration? I think you missed lots of things, else, our concepts of exploration are different.

See, what you fail to see is that when you show us a video, we get to see one path...so my bad, I apologize. It'd help if you put the level maps with the video link in future posts. Anyway, to rephrase, it's hard to explore when you shoot the player from gimmick to gimmick. I did see small diversions, like taking a vertical corkscrew down to a different area during the minimal downtime between gimmick overdose, but that's about it.

[Rael0505]

You shouldn't leave fangaming, SFA has always been my favorite.

We're being hard on SFA because our standards are so high for it. But it's already such a good game, try not to take things the wrong way - we only want to help make it better. Personally I think this game is looking fantastic, it's the first thing I want to check out when SAGE comes around.

[Slingerland]

You shouldn't leave fangaming, SFA has always been my favorite.

Same here. I'm just into helping you out, BF. I've tested your levels in the past, so I'm confused to why you're taking me the wrong way.

[Blue Frenzy]

Well, i think the problem is that what people expect of SFA. It is supossed to be one of the great ones but i do not feel like able to do it as expected. And when you work in something with your best, it hurts a lot to hear that many faults.

But, the problem is not that SL, i think it is you the one who is misunderstanding my words (Mostly how i do say things). I never took anything in a wrong way, and never said anything to offense anyone, to flame or whatever. Probably because i say the things so... cold, some of you misinterpreted it (or as it is said).

It is just, that i tried my best and there are hard faults already, i have not the level to do what i want to do, thats the reason i am thinking on leave fangaming after sfa is realeased. SFA, is my best, and it is not what i want to do. Even though i came here for people to help me with problems, i don't think i can do it better than it is now, and if there are better levels, its just casuality.

[Rael0505]

One thing about SFA that makes it different from many other fangames has been how secretive it was during its production. You have so many levels that have been finished for years that no one but a select few has seen. I played Egg Hideout* back in early 06, and it's just now going to be released for SAGE, for example.

I think I realize what the problem is - all of the criticism comes crashing down at once. Instead of showing parts of the game every now and then and getting a little bit of criticism/improving it as you work on it, you have been keeping SFA a surprise. Now if you want to fix it up, you have to correct every mistake at once... which is understandably daunting for a level you have long since considered finished.

What's done is done, though. Criticism is essentially just advice - it doesn't mean we dislike SFA, this is just our first opportunity to give feedback on this old level. You should make fangames solely because you enjoy it. Only work on what you enjoy, and don't focus on things that make you wrack your brain in frustration. There's always time to come back to old material to fix it if you feel like it.

I agree with some of Brad's criticism towards Athlon Empire, but we both still think it's a great level as it is. There is always room for improvement, which you can choose to do if and when you feel up to it. Right now, just do what you enjoy. Fangaming is just a hobby, after all. I can't wait for SAGE this year

*my personal favorite level in any fangame I've played, by the way

[BlazeHedgehog]

Everybody makes mistakes. If you were happy with your game and you have all these levels and they are done, why ask for advice? If you are satisfied with your work, that is good enough.

The key here, something SFGHQ suffers from, is we're all chasing perfection so hard we lose sight of the goal line. I've been working on TFH for almost ten years running now.

To truly allow yourself to grow and blossom and somebody who enjoys making games, you just have to do your best, release a game, and move on. If somebody finds a problem with something you made, that's something you should keep in mind for your next game project - don't go back and try to fix the old game, move forward to new horizons with the knowledge you have learned.

Don't just give up because your perfect game cannot be perfect.

[ssbfalcon]

I'm not going to complain until I play it. And even after I play it, I'll probably not complain...

You seem to have probably one of the most finished games in recent times and that far outweighs any of the criticism anyone makes here IMO...

Just release the game, they're Amateur Games after all... And yours is of a very high quality. Don't worry, it'll be great... And as always, you'll never please everyone...Heck, there are people who hate Portal...

SFGHQ needs more finished games... Its no wonder why people think we're dead...

[DimensionWarped]

I've got to say, I don't feel that Streak's complaints are particularly valid or fair all things considered. And I also feel he is stepping on my fingers here, since I also opt to go with the classic design.

And Streak, let's be blunt here. The amount of times that this board has gotten the Sonic formula right in a game that actually got released? Zero. The amount of games that have been fundamentally different that have hit release? Our webpage is saturated in them.

And one last thing for Streak... SFA has been doing the elemental attack skills and unique shields since long before Sonic Worlds ever even hit development. Don't even think about calling his shit generic. If anything, your game is merely developing on ideas which have already been showcased in it.

In any event, a bird in the hand is worth forty in the bush. And it just so happens that I like SFA.

But BF, you did make a mistake asking for advice about a first level. First levels are always nothing more than retarded bits of eye candy used to get people addicted to the game while it's still easy. The only exception to that even in the official games comes from Sonic and Knuckles for obvious reasons.

And another thing... making topics asking for level design criticism is pointless too, since most people, even here, don't really know how to identify problems outside of vague generalities.

[Slingerland]

These have been a great past few posts.

Everybody makes mistakes. If you were happy with your game and you have all these levels and they are done, why ask for advice? If you are satisfied with your work, that is good enough.

That's what confused me seeing this thread in the first place. BF told me a couple times, after having tested a few zones, that the game was complete and waiting on cutscenes only. So, then I figured that they weren't really done, so away I went with my comments like I had for him in the past over AIM. I think I was being specific enough where I was avoiding posting "vague generalities," as DW put it.

Rael and I have been discussing this on AIM for a while and his most recent post is essentially the conclusion.

...

Rael0505 (6:51:43 PM): now if he wants to fix it up he has to fix everything at once.. which could be kind of daunting for a level he considered finished

CrazyMrBrad (6:51:54 PM): that would be a great thing to post, Rael. Do it.

...

We love the look of the levels...there are design flaws, but in the end, it has been a long time coming. Don't quit...finish.

And the conclusion to this post is...you started this project when I was in 8th grade. I'm going to be a junior in college now, so just release this game already.

If you're going to post videos still, I'll be here. I can't really go anywhere anyway (leg injury). Seeing this thread gave me something to do and I got to see more of SFA.

[Rael0505]

And another thing... making topics asking for level design criticism is pointless too, since most people, even here, don't really know how to identify problems outside of vague generalities.

This is completely true. How many people here have actually designed a full level? Or how many people have designed a full level that they are happy with? I know I haven't. With all of my criticism towards level design in my history here, I've never actually done better myself...

[OverbounD]

You know BF you are a better fan game maker then I and this looks really good. I would say that your level design is some where between the Sonic Advance games and the Genesis games, in terms of speed mostly. I don't think I can comment further until I get my hands on something new.

[BlazeHedgehog]

This is completely true. How many people here have actually designed a full level? Or how many people have designed a full level that they are happy with? I know I haven't. With all of my criticism towards level design in my history here, I've never actually done better myself...

I've designed plenty of levels I am happy with. Full levels.

[Rael0505]

You are one of the few who are definitely exempt from that, Blaze. I wasn't referring to you.

[Serephim]

Well, i think the problem is that what people expect of SFA. It is supossed to be one of the great ones but i do not feel like able to do it as expected. And when you work in something with your best, it hurts a lot to hear that many faults.

You see, this is what seperates good developers from the wonky ones. When it comes to this kind of thing, trying too hard to please SOMEONE ELSE is always going to equate to you ending up flat on your face with dissapointment and a boatload of people telling you that you did what they wanted incorrectly.

I personally think Fangaming around here has taken such a blow not because of how complicated the engines are, but the fact that EVERYBODY has to be a fucking AAA Game developer to get any kind of real praise and progress anymore.

A fun game or concept just isnt enough anymore. Its always "that tile "needs to be reshaded", you "resized that sprite wrong", "those sprites dont go with this style of sprite", "you should put a gimmick RIGHT THERE", "This gameplay element is redundant", "that storyline sucks", "your logo is ugly", "theres too much green/blue/purple in this spot"....fuck, if you try to please everybody, your shit will NEVER become completed.

And worse of all, it wont be your game anymore. It'll SFGHQ's game, which is the reason why there are no fangames anymore than engine tests.

Which is why i try and make it a habit to always praise someone's work and mention some of the finer points, instead of always having some kind of graphical pet peeve or something. You guys have drilled "GENESIS SLOWER FAST BAD PITS SUCK BADNICKS DYNAMIC GIMMICKS REQUIRED" into everybodys fucking head so many times that they cant think stright anymore, and end up cramming so many opinions, gimmicks, systems and concepts into their games that they can no longer manage them alone or even complete the damn project.

As for your game Blue Frenzy, the finer points of level design in this stage is the fact that although there ARE alot of gimmicks in the stage, it looks like it would be fun to navigate. The crouch-platforms are a neat addition, and the ability to get to new paths by rolling off of them instead of using them to bounce is also neat. Dont get so strung up on "this needs to be dynamic and complicated", or "i need to balance gameplay by adding more gimmicks", or "nobody has done this before it'll be original" so much.

The comments you're getting are only natural, since we are all basically telling you EVERYTHING we see wrong with the level, which can be done to absolutely any project being worked on right now, and can be done quite extensively, too. So dont get discouraged because you are getting alot of it. Keep in mind that nobody has really played these levels before, so its more like we're comparing your game to the genesis titles. Its obvious by looking that although your game takes concepts from it, the design style is obviously quite different from the genesis games.

So, if you're feeling down about getting so many problems identified, keep in mind that you dont have to adhere to them all. You hold the right to ignore or even deny them as even being problems -- you created the game. Its kind of pigheaded at times, but hey thats sort of what being original is, and at times can give you the powerful push you need to finish your game. And in the end, you can simply look back and chock your mistakes up to situational inexperience.

(Unless its just a genuinely stupid mistake, of which I have not seen in your work yet.)

Edit: i would personally suggest a level test instead of Youtube videos. I personally cant stomach watching them fully through, and its really hard to rate a videogame like this based on the game developer completing the mission firsthand.

[Blue Frenzy]

Thank you everybody for your comments. The real problem of this, is that it has become too long. Things has been evolving and SFA is still on the first steps of 360, not talking about my gaming skills that has been changing over time, for worse or for better.

Actually, i am not plenning on leave SFA. I will just drop storyline and newer characters since i wont be able to sprite and make cutscenes. Everything else will be on. Later, i'll leave fangaming, im not sure if ill do it forever or just resting a bit, it depends of a lot of factors. Mostly because i am kind of stressed with this. I has been making this game completely alone, just some help on engine and I really am tired of doing so much work.

And about game topic. I just wanted to re-relase SFA for people to know more about it. Actually, if i want, i could release a full game with 25 zones, 7 special stages and even secret zones and final battles, so, as rael said, its time to show something. That is the reason of this post, appart of finding errors. My level design is far away from being perfect, and i want to find out whats wrong to improve.

thanks again to everybody

[LarkSS]

The only reason I make any sort of critism towards anything is usually because I like it and feel that I want to offer suggestions to help it become even better. Suggestions. I'm pretty sure everyone here, especially after all their motivational posts, feel the same way. We're just giving you feedback on ways that you could make things better, but you don't have to change anything. In the end, it really comes down to what you feel is best, and there's nothing wrong with deciding to ignore critism if you feel you've done your best already.

So in other words, if you're happy with what you've done and you don't want to change it, then hell, your game is as good as it can be then. Don't let anyone else make you think that your game isn't "complete".

I still remember the first time Rael introduced me to your game. I really liked what I saw and what I played; it wasn't the quality of your game that won me over however, but rather the amount of effort I saw was put into this game.

I may be expecting this game to come out great, but I'm also expecting it to be the way you want it to be, not the way others want it to be. =>

I will just drop storyline and newer characters since i wont be able to sprite and make cutscenes.

My drawing skills seem to be improving and I know a bit of spriting from past work; if you want I could try to lend a hand.

[DimensionWarped]

No offense BF, but I told you before that you were one crazy bastard for wanting to make 25 zones. Good zones with quality content none the less. Nothing short of a commercial production could ever work with such a thing, and plenty of SEGA's commercial productions with only 7 zones have been filled with lackluster shit.

Which is why i try and make it a habit to always praise someone's work and mention some of the finer points, instead of always having some kind of graphical pet peeve or something. You guys have drilled "GENESIS SLOWER FAST BAD PITS SUCK BADNICKS DYNAMIC GIMMICKS REQUIRED" into everybodys fucking head so many times that they cant think stright anymore, and end up cramming so many opinions, gimmicks, systems and concepts into their games that they can no longer manage them alone or even complete the damn project.

For all five of the people who actually try to make a project that way you mean? You know Seraph, you shouldn't act as though your own hangups reflect the masses. If you want to do a game on your own, go for it. No one is saying you have to have all of this stuff. It's just stuff you can have if you want your game to be better. And let's be real here. If you have a game with no "gimmicks", you don't have a platform game. Every platform game since Donkey Kong, from Super Mario Brothers to Jak and Daxter, has used gimmicks as a way of adding versatility to the levels.

Some of us do push on the way gimmicks need to work a little too much, but all of that isn't necessary if you like what you have, but get real. It isn't like all this work people are putting into each individual element isn't being met with an equal yield.

And believe it or not, the whole oldschool + gimmick movement didn't even start here until long after Sonic Time Attacked was released. So that puts a little hole in your notion that this is whats causing games not to be released.

[Asuma]

Lack of motivation is what is causing cancellations. That and some of our members "constructive criticism".

[Slingerland]

Lack of motivation is what is causing cancellations. That and some of our members "constructive criticism".

OK, Mr. One Liner.

Oh yay, I read DWs post and I don't have to repeat what he said to Sereph. So...uh...in summation, shut your pie hole, Sereph. I think having three people (DW not included) asking me to ban your ass is a sign that you need to chillax.

[Serephim]

Some of us do push on the way gimmicks need to work a little too much, but all of that isn't necessary if you like what you have, but get real. It isn't like all this work people are putting into each individual element isn't being met with an equal yield.

Its only an equal yield when they actually complete something, DW. Quality over Quantity is usually the way to go, but when quality is nothing but a forum full of ongoing pretty engine tests for years on end, its time to start going somewhere with it.

And believe it or not, the whole oldschool + gimmick movement didn't even start here until long after Sonic Time Attacked was released. So that puts a little hole in your notion that this is whats causing games not to be released.

What?

You know, I like how you just turned my entire post into an attack on gimmicks, when that wasn't even an eighth of what it was about. Nowhere in that post did I state "developing gimmicks = unfinished game". I was saying the main reason people are not finishing their games is because they are trying to adhere to the rules and opinions of anyone who can make one up. Overburden was the focus of my post, not gimmicks. Trying to make your game the best it can be is fine and dandy, but lets really be real here.

You know Seraph, you shouldn't act as though your own hangups reflect the masses.

I dont see how you make this observation with all my posts.

[DimensionWarped]

Its only an equal yield when they actually complete something, DW. Quality over Quantity is usually the way to go, but when quality is nothing but a forum full of ongoing pretty engine tests for years on end, its time to start going somewhere with it.

Except that your points have nothing to do with quantity. You can't really hope to pinpoint the reason games don't get finished and so you are pointing fingers like a dipshit.

You know, I like how you just turned my entire post into an attack on gimmicks, when that wasn't even an eighth of what it was about. Nowhere in that post did I state "developing gimmicks = unfinished game". I was saying the main reason people are not finishing their games is because they are trying to adhere to the rules and opinions of anyone who can make one up. Overburden was the focus of my post, not gimmicks. Trying to make your game the best it can be is fine and dandy, but lets really be real here.

Thats because just about every post you make is an attack on gimmicks. You even go so far as to claim that you hate the very word "gimmick" because it somehow offends your sense of artful complexity or some stupid shit like that. And I should add that the only tangible thing you even began to mention in your list of what people said was the whole gimmick spiel. There isn't much more that can be inferred from your behavior than that you are attacking the modern paradigm that is going on around here, and the part of that paradigm you attack most frequently is gimmicks and gimmick saturation.

I dont see how you make this observation with all my posts.

I think you are awfully quick to talk about how people feel they need to live up to someone else' standards when you did just that with your Tails Adventure fangame for those exact reasons. Only we never even so much as saw that one, probably because you, as an individual perceived far too much pressure to adhere to the so called "elevated standards" you are complaining about. And I'd argue with everyone here that...

These standards don't really exist!

They are just an illusion that people who want to think they are the best of the best while simulataneously asking for sharp criticism while being waaaaaaaaay too sensitive to take criticism the right way perceive in the minor and extrapolate dangerously on in the major. Don't get me wrong, we all do take criticism the wrong way, but then we have some people who freak out over it and start turning it into bullshit standards and then complain that the standards are too high when the only time in the last several years any real standards were set was when Sonic Time Attacked came out, and it wasn't the freakin' standard, it was the damned pinnacle! No, these standards are just something people are pulling right out of their asses when people state their opinion on their game. It's the product of everyone wnating to be over-competitive to the point that its stupid.

But no, you aren't satisfied to live up to standards, you want to be the pinnacle. And why? Because since there are a number of projects going on that are adequately staffed and worked on a lot, you feel you have to live up to those. Not some standard that actually has precedents, but some illusory standard thats all in your head. Well, all I have to say to that is the obvious. You can't be the best at everything and even if you could, you wouldn't have the time to be the best at everything. And when thats the case, you either settle for what you can do or you join up with someone else.

And thats another problem, we don't have many people willing to just sacrifice their own vision of what should be and join up with other people's projects. Everyone wants to be a leader and everyone wants to shatter the world with their vision.

In any event, grow up. Throwing the blame at the people who try to achieve the pinnacle isn't helping you get any closer to a release, and neither is making up this notion that they are holding you back. YOU are holding you back, no one else.

[Serephim]

Wow, i really kind of tried to avoid this from the start.

thanks alot DW.

Except that your points have nothing to do with quantity. You can't really hope to pinpoint the reason games don't get finished and so you are pointing fingers like a dipshit.

yeah okay.

Thats because just about every post you make is an attack on gimmicks.

Right.

You even go so far as to claim that you hate the very word "gimmick" because it somehow offends your sense of artful complexity or some stupid shit like that.

what the fuck are you talking about

And I should add that the only tangible thing you even began to mention in your list of what people said was the whole gimmick spiel. There isn't much more that can be inferred from your behavior than that you are attacking the modern paradigm that is going on around here, and the part of that paradigm you attack most frequently is gimmicks and gimmick saturation.

So what, you think I wrote all that just to tell people to stop putting gimmicks in their games? Really? "Stop putting gimmicks in your game because it wont get finished?" Yeah thats exactly what i was implying. You hit the nail on the head, DW.

I think you are awfully quick to talk about how people feel they need to live up to someone else' standards when you did just that with your Tails Adventure fangame for those exact reasons. Only we never even so much as saw that one, probably because you, as an individual perceived far too much pressure to adhere to the so called "elevated standards" you are complaining about.

Wow you hit the nail on the head again, seeing as the gameplay mechanics in my game is so far removed from what most of you are doing (Sonic platforming) that you would have trouble even comparing gameplay with mine. Which means I really have no pressure from anybody in terms of "standards" or what i need to include.

tl'dr

couldn't agree more, although i do find it funny you make references to "illusory standards" like i somehow just told everybody that standards dont exist and that you shouldn't aspire to anything.

And this is where i can go ahead and tell you this whole arguement is a load of elevated bullshit, thanks to your perfect psychoanalysis of me and why I "attack the world who exceeds" because fangames arent being completed. Had you read the post, i was NOT attacking people just because they criticize at all. I was simply stating that the people MAKING the game dont have to use every single opinion as an absolute error in their game, because in most cases that equates to a cookie-cutter sonic game, and also eliminates any kind of originality they could have had going for them.

If anything DW, im more angry with cookie cutter, engine basic, dotted-line drawn, polished-to-a-monochrome-sheen fangames than i am with "gimmicks". You throw shit out of proportion when you assume im trying to dictate to the planet or something, when in all truth, most of what i was saying was directed at Blue Frenzy's comment of quitting fangaming because he cant please everybody.

So i dont know how something that apparently has nothing to do with you becomes something for you to bitch at me with. Again.