Brawl Tourney #2: Underway, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT

[Ligar]

Dodging the Dragoon is a cinche, all you have to do is egg them on.

You must not be doing it right.

[DimensionWarped]

The same goes for the person using the dragoon... Getting them to dodge early is cake. All you have to do is fake like you are getting ready to use it.

And do you really think thats going to work online where talking is impossible? I mean, I suppose you could um... taunt if you really want to egg them on, but I'm willing to bet that would end in tears.

[Ligar]

Its the other way around. Talking is the distraction.

[DimensionWarped]

Look, the fact is, you can't interact in any way that would constitute egging someone on when you are on the internet. Add that to the fact that the move without mind games is a guaranteed hit and you have a guaranteed hit.

[Pheonix Gamma]

Air dodge, sidestep, roll, sprint or use I-frames via transformation, Pokeballs, or climbing up ledges.

Seven options to dodge the dragoon, motherfucker. Do you use them?

[tentril]

You have to get three pieces which can be knocked out of you to use Dragoon. I say if you get all of that you earned a free kill.

[DimensionWarped]

Or maybe you are using Sonic against someone who is slower and therefor you can get the items quicker and are more capable of using weaker attacks to force the dragoon items out of the opponent.

The issue here is balance. For some characters, certain items really push them over the edge. When it comes to these instant-kill items, the characters already tend to be way up there without them.

[DimensionWarped]

Air dodge

Killed you right after you did that.

sidestep

Killed you the second the invincibility frames wore off and you were vulnerable for 4 frames.

roll

Killed you at the end of the roll.

sprint

Killed you whenever I felt like.

or use I-frames via transformation, Pokeballs

Didn't kill you because you were one of two characters

or climbing up ledges.

Killed you when you got up from the ledge/when the invincibility ran out while you were hanging on the ledge/as you were running to get to the ledge/as you were jumping out to grab the ledge/insert other mandatory vulnerability moment that is associated with every single dodge technique in the game.

I mean what, are you not realizing that these moments exist with every dodge technique or are you not realizing you can press A to launch the dragoon before the time limit wears off and that its an instant launch with no startup time or animation delays of any kind?

So to say the least, what you really have here is 2/35ths of a surefire method for dodging the dragoon.

[Ligar]

Serious business I see. Man up DW, every character can dodge at a good rate. In fact, Slow dodgers (like Ike) have a slight advantage over Dragoon since their dodge takes a split second longer to end than others. Its all about luck and timing the way your putting it.

As for knocking the pieces out of the opponent, it takes a good hit to knock them out, and with Sonic thats a friggin mountain to climb.

[DimensionWarped]

That isn't an advantage for them. They have even more vulnerability frames afterwards.

And like I said, this is against competent players who can actually look at your dodge and know within a 2 frame window when it will end.

As for knocking the parts out with Sonic, all you need are a few dash attacks. Saying that you need a strong hit to knock one out really just shows how little you understand the item.

[Streak Thunderstorm]

I've become quite a disgusting beast with Capn Falcon. I use nothing but Falcon POOANCH and I hit every time. I was playing WIFI for about 6 hours and just played as Cap. I swear to you, nothing was used but Falcon punch and recovery moves. Lol.

[Pheonix Gamma]

Killed you right after you did that.

Nu-uh. Yer too sloooow.

Killed you the second the invincibility frames wore off and you were vulnerable for 4 frames.

Dragoon doesn't last forever. Stall, I-frame, taunt, then lawl.

Killed you at the end of the roll.

Not if I roll when you use it.

Killed you whenever I felt like.

Dodged you whenever I felt like. Because if you're actually fucking GOOD and not a cry baby, then you can fucking DO THAT. DERP DERP!

Killed you when you got up from the ledge/when the invincibility ran out while you were hanging on the ledge/as you were running to get to the ledge/as you were jumping out to grab the ledge/insert other mandatory vulnerability moment that is associated with every single dodge technique in the game.

I can fabricate contrived scenarios too, fuckface.

Here's the thing: it's possible to dodge Dragoon. If you're good you can:

A) Not let the opponent get the pieces

Dodge the attack using one of several methods

or C) Not let the opponent get fucking the pieces

I guess attacks should be banned. Because if he hits you then he can grab an item while you're hit.

NO ATTACKS!

NO ITEMS!

SHIELD BUTTON ONLY!

FINAL DESTINATION!

[DimensionWarped]

The thing is, once you get it its a free kill. None of the dodge methods you mentioned are anything near capable of working on someone who knows the tricks, and a good player WILL unconditionally either force you to play your hand too early or hit you if you try to stall.

It's like saying you can dodge Warioman in spite of the fact that he is faster than you, invincible, and has more range on his attacks than normal. You'd have to be pretty vastly superior to your opponent to make it work and in higher level play it will never happen.

And you can't dodge someone when they use it. Once they've used it it's over. Either you are already dodging or you are fucked. Likewise, once you've dodged, it's over. They get you the instant your dodge is finished. See that? It's a catch 22!

So if all you are going to do is fuck around and try to justify it with bullshit scenarios that rely on the user being a complete fucking tard, I don't even see the point in listening to you.

[Ligar]

Or you can just stop your BSing and get the kill back

[DimensionWarped]

The thing is, in order to get the kill back and not get killed in the process, you have to be significantly better than your opponent rather than just better.

In this case, the low occurence rate of items even works against the fairness of the match since in any given game, you'll probably only have one game-breaking item group actually come up.

[Ligar]

Now hold on, which player are you defending here? If its the shooter: You just point and shoot the Dragoon dude. Its not rocket science.

[DimensionWarped]

Did anyone say it was? You are the one who seems to be implying that there is some tragic flaw to it that makes it as simple as dodging it.

[Ligar]

The point is that even though they free kill you, there's still a chance to catch up. And since these are stock matches, its possible. Dragoon or no dragoon, its still possible to come back and win.

[DimensionWarped]

I don't want possible, I want fair. Items that tilt the match in an instant like that simply aren't.

It's the same reason I'm against hearts. And how many of you guys haven't seen a heart and immediately groaned? Every time I've seen a heart, I don't care who gets it, whether its me or the opponent, the match is instantly rendered stupid.

Thing is, everyone draws the line somewhere. If you guys draw it at hearts, fine. Personally, I draw it at instant kill items. The second you even set the item occurrence rate to low you've created your own rules and bitching about other people playing differently is rendered immediately hypocritical.

[Ligar]

Then lets put a character into the fold, with no smash balls; Diddy Kong.

His down B is banana slip and he can toss a lot of them. With you slipping and sliding all over the place he's getting free hits: fair?

[DimensionWarped]

Yes, because not only does it create a huge vulnerability time when he is actually using the move, but you can also pick up the bananas and throw them back at him. You get the exact same advantages he gets out of them. In fact, you can jump above his head and catch them before they even fall down. Heck, before he even ends the throwing animation actually. The fact that they move so slowly during the move makes them the most easily caught character-produced items in the game.

Oh, and 2 is not a lot.

[Ligar]

So its that easy to dodge the bananas despite being small and hard to see? Intriguing...

[DimensionWarped]

First, he makes a noise when throwing them. I hope you are using more cues than just your eyes. You should also see them coming because he has to use the move (a very slow move) in order to produce the banana and then he has to grab it. Both movements are obvious.

Second, the easy part about it is the fact that he doesn't immediately grab them when he uses the move. He throws them lazily behind his head. THAT is when it is easy to dodge them and grab them.

[Pheonix Gamma]

I'm starting to think you just suck. Like that kid that bawww'd whenever I snuck up behind him in Goldeneye or spammed green shells in Block Fort in Mario Kart.

If the enemy kills you in any scenario, it's your fault for not being good enough. You weren't good enough to dodge his attacks, you weren't good enough to get the fan before him or DI out, and you weren't good enough to stop him from getting THREE (!!!) items, even if you can knock them out of him. A real champ can handle any situation you throw at him at any moment.

TL;DR:

CRY SUM MOARRRRRRR

[Streak Thunderstorm]

The thing is, once you get it its a free kill. None of the dodge methods you mentioned are anything near capable of working on someone who knows the tricks, and a good player WILL unconditionally either force you to play your hand too early or hit you if you try to stall.

It's like saying you can dodge Warioman in spite of the fact that he is faster than you, invincible, and has more range on his attacks than normal. You'd have to be pretty vastly superior to your opponent to make it work and in higher level play it will never happen.

And you can't dodge someone when they use it. Once they've used it it's over. Either you are already dodging or you are fucked. Likewise, once you've dodged, it's over. They get you the instant your dodge is finished. See that? It's a catch 22!

So if all you are going to do is fuck around and try to justify it with bullshit scenarios that rely on the user being a complete fucking tard, I don't even see the point in listening to you.

I got KOed by Warioman twice. I kept using Ike's counter. he'd hit, I'd counter then run away. Whoever was playing as him would either go after others or persue. I'd just keep spamming counter.