A fun little analysis game of sorts...

[ila]

Actually the thing is Sega made it blatantly obvious in Sonic Heroes, signs everywhere telling you to go to a different position, plus chracters that could never shut up. What I want is an obvious way to do it without telling the player how to do it.

[Aki-at]

So if I got some previous points...people had faith in Sonic Heroes? I thought you were all smarter then that! ::shot::

Okay seriously I had no faith in Sonic Heroes to be better then either Sonic ADventure or Sonic Adventure 2, although I had strong faith in Sonic the Hedgehog, however the interviews with the producers really should have hinted me off that it wasn't going to be the game it became...

"We wanted to make the game so that the Sonic was fast again...we wanted to use the next gen technology so that people felt like they were actually running at that speed" etc ect and more about speed. nothing about Shadow or Silver at all! Oh well heres hoping for Yokiro Ogawa! = P

And Blaze is a perfectly fine addition to the Sonic cast...

Also Sonic Jam was awesome, 3D Sonic is doable, I have you know I enjoyed Sonic Adventure more then Sonic the Hedgehog 3!

[1LT Worm]

After Fuzz's unneeded angst, I've gone from midly accepting this thread to completely hating it. If this is just going to be a front for bashing the hell out of 3D Sonic games, screw this! T_T

Hey, it's not that I hate 3D Sonic games.

I think if they tightened up the engine a bit, and did more levels that didn't have a free-fall on all sides (or hell, Sega could program a force field or something), things would be a lot better though.

[VectorSatyr]

Hey, it's not that I hate 3D Sonic games.

I was mostly talking about Fuzz and Aerosol...

I think if they tightened up the engine a bit, and did more levels that didn't have a free-fall on all sides (or hell, Sega could program a force field or something), things would be a lot better though.

Yeah, I agree here. We should try to use this thread to our advantage and acknoledge these mistakes in our fangames.

No pitfalls of death (or, at least, very rarely any), make the mechanics important, don't rehash old ideas, and more importantly, keep it simple. (It should be all about the Advan group - no one else).

[Slingerland]

I think if they tightened up the engine a bit...

Or changed the engine for that matter. It's been the same since 1999. Use the Sonic Jam engine from the 3D world. That was a happy medium for me, because in the Genesis games, you noticed that he wasn't nearly as fast as they make him out today. I liked that and that's why I thought Sonic Advance was the closest they got to "going back to his roots."

[DimensionWarped]

Sonic Advance still had nothing close to the same physical relations that Sonic has with the stage. No recent Sonic game does.

Until rolling becomes the most important maneuver besides jumping, Sonic won't be Sonic. Thats a fact.

[Slingerland]

I should bold the word "CLOSEST" in my last post. Didn't say it was, but you got to level with me that SAdv was a decent attempt.

[Pheonix Gamma]

Sonic Advance still had nothing close to the same physical relations that Sonic has with the stage. No recent Sonic game does.

Until rolling becomes the most important maneuver besides jumping, Sonic won't be Sonic. Thats a fact.

I thought Sonic's main ability was that he could run supersonic fast...

[DimensionWarped]

Thats not an ability. Thats an attribute.

[Aerosol]

I was mostly talking about Fuzz and Aerosol...

what the hell did I do.

[Aaron C-T]

Fuzz: I actually agree with your thoughts on Heroes' potential in your last post. It's quite a bit different than what you said about Heroes in your first one.

Aersol: Probably meant me.

DW: I dunno, I have to disagree somewhat. While rolling was important in some aspects, I don't truly remember running and then ducking into a roll all that much. If anything it was spindashing that was used to boost myself to a high enough speed where I could get through a loop or something. I remember using it for things like the second level in Sonic 1 where those tubes are coming down onto those platforms. For things like breaking through faulty walls in Green Hill Zone and such. Then again, I could be wrong. I'll probably have to play some Genesis over the Xmas break or something.

[Aerosol]

i didnt know you had sonic jam scatta. wow! Because as far as I know, sonic 1 didnt have spindash...

[USC]

It didn't have rev-up spin dash, but if you were running and pressed down, you'd go into a ball. I don't remember it giving you a speed boost, though.

[VectorSatyr]

... I don't truly remember running and then ducking into a roll all that much. If anything it was spindashing that was used to boost myself to a high enough speed where I could get through a loop or something.

Spindashing forces you into a roll. That counts as rolling.

And while you may not have used it often enough, whether you were rolling or not did have a significant impact on how you got through a level. It decided if you'd break through a barrier, if you'd kill an enemy, if you'd gain enough momentum to go through a loop, all the while losing little to no speed, etc.

Back on topic, Sonic Team can do whatever they want with Sonic, and besides not buying their games as Scatta suggested, there isn't much you can do about it. So I'd like it if everyone would stop ____ting on 3D sonic just because they don't feel like 2D sonics, just because they don't play like them, just because they're not them. The Genesis era went away years ago...

[DimensionWarped]

You are missing the point here.

Its not that 3D Sonic games are bad. Its that Sonic games aren't Sonic games any more. They lost touch with the style and the feel altogether, and there really isn't any reason for it aside from simply not getting it.

And its not about 2D vs. 3D. Its about then vs. now. The 2D games today aren't Sonic either.

[Mark the Echidna]

Sonic games today are much more air based than ground based... You stay a good part of your time homing attacking above the ground... I don't think that's bad, it's only being overused.

I don't think rolling should be the always the most important move after jumping. It should depend on the level.

[DimensionWarped]

2 out of 6 zones in Sonic 1 where rolling wasn't that important...

Marble Zone

Labrinth Zone

2 out of 9 (Death Egg and Sky Chase aren't qualified, but both involve copious amounts of rolling anyway... Well, if you are any good anyway) zones in Sonic 2 that don't involve heavy rolling:

Oil Ocean

Sky Chase

Before I move on, what do all of these levels have in common? The answer is that they have slow progression and are based on puzzle solving more than standard gameplay. Also, note that the ratio has decreased.

Sonic 3 and Knuckles

One act doesn't have a much rolling

Sandopolis Act 2

Six out of twelve (Hidden Palace and Doomsday Zone don't count obviously) zones have insane amounts of rolling.

Hydrocity Zone

Marble Garden Zone

Launch Base

Mushroom Hill

Lava Reef

Death Egg Zone

So, you see, the ratio decreased further as the series reached its peak. Moreover, it continued to be the puzzle levels that had a lack of rolling.

[Pheonix Gamma]

Not to mention, the puzzle-based levels usually weren't as fun as the others.

I dunno if I'd include Hydrocity in the "insane amount of rolling" list(I personally didn't roll too much), but I suppose it could have been played that way.

I dunno how you'd make a 3d Sonic game that had a more...accessable, for a lack of a better word...way of rolling, unless it was a sidescroller.

And I'll say it again, Klonoa 2 did a fantasteriffic job with it, and Sonic could totally pull it off if Sega got the right people working on it. I vote Sega/Namco partnership ala Nintendo/Capcom's thing they did for the handheld Zeldas after LA.

Or get the guys behind Secret of the Hidden Rings or whatever to work on it, since they seem to know how to make a good Sonic game (assuming the retail release isn't a disappointment.)

EDIT WOMG 777TH POST IM LUCKY

[Aki-at]

The team behind Sonic Wildfire is also the team behind Feel the Magic: Project Rub just so people know. Most of it is UGA but as we know, due to the SEGA/Sammy reshuffles, the two teams were merged and are now Sonic Team.

And seeing the interview that NOM had with him, his apparently getting his ideas from Sonic the Hedgehog 2. I don't know how he is but eh just thought people should know!

Back to the topic, What ever happened to the slopes helping to speed you up? now all it is is springs and booster pads with a quick little spindash! I wish they had slopes back ;__;

[DimensionWarped]

I dunno how you'd make a 3d Sonic game that had a more...accessable, for a lack of a better word...way of rolling, unless it was a sidescroller.

It would probably help if... you know... they actually tried. What they did with Sonic Adventure and beyond though was simply tweak the controls for Sonic 3D Blast.

So, I figure its the fault of the coordinate axis of the controller.

You have all 360 degrees controlled by one axis in the 2D games and you have up and down with... up and down. The logical solution is to do what they did with Mario. Get a crouch button.

If you've noticed, there are sections of Mario Sunshine where ducking is emphasized as much as it is in various sections of the old Mario games where you duck to get under a single tile while running. Thats an example of a good translation of 2D mechanics to a 3D world.

With Sonic games, you sacrifice one dimension in favor of another and replace a mechanic with various "special moves".

[Aaron C-T]

Aero: That's basically what I just said. I don't disagree about breaking through things and the like. However, there were always routes that didn't require you to roll as well.

Aerosol: I meant, I remember using rolling for that sort of thing, not spindash. I should've seperated those two ideas better.

DW: Yea, you're right about the puzzle thing as well. One of the cool things about Sonic Adventure, although those were completely different types of puzzles altogether. I dont' see why it's so hard for them to get back into this groove.

PG: Or they could have sections of it sidescrolling a la the videos from Sonic X-treme. Also, you do realize that Sonic and the Secret Rings isn't a true Sonic game, yes? It's a linear spinoff game and, while it may be fun, still isn't a Sonic game as defined by this topic.

Aki-at: Who's he? The guy in charge of the old UGA team (whatever that is)?

[Serephim]

Well, ive sucessfully completed Sonic Rush.

The game is pretty damn fun, it beats out all the advance series games by a long ass shot, IMO.

The differences with the engine (and its pretty obvious) is that they have COMPLETELY negated physics.

Sonic Rush would be a pretty awesome ass game, only if they did physics a tad bit better. You can almost WALK around loops on these new games. (by that i mean go walk up to a loop. When you cant walk up any further, go back one or two steps and hold Right/left. Youll clear it.)

The Boost makes the game tons more fun, and the level design wasnt that repetetive at all. (it was pretty hard too.) The only problem with the game is that:

1) Getting all 7 chaos emeralds doesnt get you super sonic, which REALLY pisses me off because i actully would enjoy being super in that game a craplot. (espically to see that awsome boost.)

2) There is almost 0% unlockable content. Getting S ranks for each stage is almost as hard as getting an A rank on Cannons Core *shudder..*, but you gain nothing from it.

3) rolling doesnt increase your speed, because there are no real slope physics in the game.

I think Sonic Rush was headed in the right direction, a better direction than Sonic the Hedgehog (which SEROUSLY bombed on IGN...but they gave the graphics a 6.5, so the validity of their review is to be questioned.). If only Sonic Team would RETURN THE IDEA OF ACTUAL PHYSICS to the games (and by GAMES i mean the 3D ones too. Automatically making you hit full speed when you near a loop really takes the fun out of it sometimes.). The physics made for much of the Genesis Sonic gameplay that we're missing out on.

If the 3D games added physics to the loops, then they could include more slope/ ramp tricks to make the gameplay flow better. (kind of like the ramp tricks that Knuckles Chaotix raped to bloody obvlion.) You should have to hit a loop at almost half speed to clear it, and have to roll into some of the bigger ones. (Big Loop in Seaside Hill = impossible almost if it had actual physics to it. It would add to "wow" factor going through the loop if you actully had to TRY to clear it..not walk into a Sensor that automagically shoots you at 500mph up a ramp.)

Im dissapointed with the trouble Sonic Team is having with the 3D games. Im sure with stronger systems like the 360/ps3 (Hell, the Wii too. Elebits = pure physics), they should be able to make a new engine that works with 3D slope physics.

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And i played the PS3 yesterday (that motorola game). The graphics are pretty damn spiffy, but what the HELL is with the 110% slowdown?! How do you get a feel for speed if the framerate is being constantly raped from the moment you start the game and gets worse the longer you hold down the damn acceleration button?

----another edit

And i completely blame the decline of ALL sonic games for the lack of rolling, which is obvously a lack of wanting to implement physics.

Why strip away one of THE MAIN THINGS SONIC WAS KNOWN FOR...

[Aaron C-T]

I agree that Sonic Rush is better than SAdv2 (I only had 1&2 and I lost 1), but I disagree about the stages being hard. The only hard thing, imo, about the stages are the wide-open spaces that are just waiting to grab you. Who's idea was it that I should go flying off a ramp and then the gravity should just-so-happen to change sending me flying upwards into empty space and causing me a life. How am I supposed to see the gravity change coming? Gah. Idiotic level design abound, and yet I still like it more than the Advances. Or maybe I've just grown accustomed to sucky games. I fully agree with all your statements about physics and the like.

What the heck is Motorola, though? I've played the Motorstorm demo for PS3, is that what you're talking about? I really did miss the rumble for that demo a lot more than I thought I would. It was like "look I'm realistically falling and bouncing off the rocks- my sleeves are even getting covered with mud and grime! . . . you know.. this would be better if they made the controller rumble as I hit the rocks I wonder why they didn- OH YEAH!" =/

Oh and I'll probably be buying Sonic Next. If it's anything like SA/SA2 even with all the glitches I figure I can deal, especially since it'd be a Christmas present of some sort if I did get it. I'm not going to stage a one-man boycott against Sonic games for the rest of eternity.

[Serephim]

Yea Motorstorm.

I felt like the game was playing in permanate Focus Mode. With pretty graphics.

PS3 is overrated to me...but i cant WAIT for someone to get one so i can play MGS3. (DMC4 looks awsome, but its annoying that their completely ignoring their success with DMC1/DMC3 by adding another character to the storyline instead of just giving Dante more kickass moves.)

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And that gravity trap on Sonic Rush only happened ONCE, but omfg it raped like 5 times. Theres a level trap in almost every act that does that to me because im mindlessly boosting and tricking off everything i can see.

Blaze seems to pass all those traps because her R-tricks either A) get her to new paths, or let me get lucky and escape the pit traps.

Dunno, but the level design got better with each stage to me. They did pretty well with the amount of holding right with the stage, and the bosses were KICK. ASS. The level traps got annoying sometimes though. They start to happen near the end of the second act alot, but they usually are smart and make sure they slow you down before you go somewhere where dashing/running gets you killed. Only exceptions is that annoying ass gravity pit in the last stage, and the big ass gap in the water stage. (And the really annoying laser thingies in Attitude Limit.)

Whoever worked on Sonic Rush need to do it again. Improving more on that game would really put something good in their/our hands. (espically with the bosses. Those were actully fun. The last boss (not the super sonic one, he was just annoying) is actully fun to take down once he starts speeding up. It only gets annoying when they decide that they want to blast your rings 800ft in the air once you get hit.)

And omg, the final song for the game sounds like a gospel track or something. It annoyed me.

[MidimanNull]

..Do you have a habit of hitting enter after every sentence? we SFGHQ'ers arent scared to freaking read paragraphs.

*proceeds to read paragraphs*

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I wish I could play Sonic Rush, I havent played it at all, so I wouldnt have a opinion on it.

We can all agree that the elemental shields need to be revived too.