Sonic Attitude; video on last page

[Endri]

The Background is 3D with textures applied. The textures are indeed made of high quality photographs.

The same technique is also seem in Gran Turismo 4, for PS2:

[Endri]

Does my textures really looks like photographs. I mean, now that I look at them, they doesn't look like photos at all. Maybe my eyes are untrained (used) to see this style of art, so, It doesn't catch me as it used to.

Also, I have a quick question...

Will anyone download the game (the PC version, I mean), if the game was about, lets say... a gigabyte?

This is a very important question, since it will determinate what I'll put in the demo for SAGE, and what quality the demo will turn out to be (resource wise).

[Rael0505]

Will anyone download the game (the PC version, I mean), if the game was about, lets say... a gigabyte?

holy shit, no. most people complain about fangames if they're more than 20 megs.

[Endri]

holy shit, no. most people complain about fangames if they're more than 20 megs.

Oh Gawd! 20MB? ... I don't know what I'll be able to accomplish with a 20 megs threshold. But anyways, most Gameloft games are less much than 15MB, so it might not be a problem at all... I guess.

Maybe a super-duper high-level compression algorithm will do the trick, perhaps?

Guess I'll stick with the DS version then. At least it's not more than 5 megs.

[P3DR0]

For me it's ok to have 1gb

The game looks incredible.

[Rael0505]

Well obviously the 20 mb thing deals mostly with 2D games... and they only get that big because of large mp3 files, so that filesize is unnecessary to begin with.

Because your game is much bigger, it's obviously understandable that your game's filesize will be much larger. However, a gigabyte is unrealistic. Very few people will be willing to download a fangame that large. Hell, users like Lark probably wouldn't even be able to run the thing on their machines.

[LarkSS]

I'd try to be conservative with space and all, but considering your game and what you're trying to do, I'd say it's alright to let the size linger around 50-100mb. Would be great if your demos were kept small compared to the final release though.

Hell, users like Lark probably won't even be able to run the thing on his machine.

System Requirements ftw.

[Cyber Rat]

Well, these days, 1GB is close to nothing, so I wouldn't mind downloading it. My take is that people just aren't used to it when it comes to fangames. Although I would like to ask what makes it so big?

[Endri]

Although I would like to ask what makes it so big?

Sure.

Copy pasta from the PM I sent to USC.

"Well,

That actually would stand for the complete game. And I can point some reasons. The code is really heavy. There where some parts of the code that could be performed in the time of execution of the game, but I had to think ahead and pre calculate some things to save CPU load time and guarantee smooth flawless 60fps. Every texture in the game are maps of 2048x2048 pixels, with 64bits of depth and very high quality images. But not a very high compression ratio, since the time the CPU and RAM memory would take to descompress and put the textures in the VRAM, I could use for something else, and save the 60fps. Another thing, the lightmaps. The same as the textures 65536x65536 pixels on 64bits of depth. But since most video cards only support up to 2048 square pixels, They where split into 32 lightmaps of 2048x2048 pixel. Try it yourself. Save a image in MSpaint with 2048x2048 in png format, see it's size, and multiply the value by 32. There you have the lightmap only for a small section of the level. The CG rendered videos are 1080p of resolution (1965x1080 pixels), and are about 250MB each. The number of assets for the stage editor are very high, too, to add variety. The music, the same thing. The music are streamed, that means they are read directly from the disc, and loop, change equalizers all on the fly. That means, too, no small compression. In fact, most every resource in the project is streamed.

But, I guess it counts out for professional games as well. Professinal game can have games up to more than 8GBs. Why can't mine? Only because it's a fangame, or because it's too heavy for download? Keep in mind, however, that a LOT of MMOs people download in the internet are bigger than a gig and are crappy (I mean resource wise, not the game itself).

My game is, at the very least... hmm... I might be biased to say, granted, but it's beautiful." (sorry for the many typos)

Well, that's a few reasons the game is over a gig. Could I make it smaller? Yes. However, that requires time.

Although the project seems a little unrealistic, I'm mostly sure Lark will be able to play it in his machine (not the school macbook, of course). Since I optimize most things based in his comments. The same doesn't apply for Damizean, P3DR0 or me, since we have ultra-übber machines.

I guess all those years working in game development companies made me a little over-thinker.

[Cyber Rat]

Ok, I get it now. Well, go for it, I personally see no reason why not to have it reach the 1GB threshold, since, like I said, that's nothing these days.

[Felik]

Ok, I get it now. Well, go for it, I personally see no reason why not to have it reach the 1GB threshold, since, like I said, that's nothing these days.

I wouldn't say that it is nothing but it is acceptable. But still you MUST release a gameplay video with demo. Noone is going to download 1Gb blindly even though screenshots look good.

[LarkSS]

Eh, yeaaah, I agree with them two. A video like Felik would be close to mandatory with the size being that large, and I'd also recommend a demo with stuff cut out as a quick(ish) download for those interested in getting a hands-on experience before downloading the real thing.

For high quality graphics and more than 20 second of playability, download the game!

[Felik]

And also I think that you should release a torrent version of the demo.

[Damizean]

Endri, you can't be serious about what you just said. It's completely unrealistic, specially if we're talking about LarkSS' computer xD

[cyborg_ar]

Sure.

Every texture in the game are maps of 2048x2048 pixels, with 64bits of depth and very high quality images.

My screen is not a 35mm film printer, so there are at least 32 useless bits per pixel in those textures (not to tell about the resolution)

[flame6753]

Endri, you do plan on hosting on a reliable server right? Megaupload doesn't seem to have limits now, and ifile.it has no download limits.

But I can already tell you now, that If you plan on using either rapidshare (limits), torrent (will take weeks if you are the only seed) or some other host with bad download speeds (people will cancel the download), SAGE will be over long before someone gets to play your game.

[USC]

As annoying as it might be, perhaps it could be released in parts? IE: One zip holds the image files, another holds the sounds, still another has the various scripts...

[Carl Winslow]

I don't get why you need textures that huge and a lightmap that you had to divide into 32 sections. they aren't even compressed either, which makes the entire idea seem dreadfully absurd.

I also can't comprehend the need for 1GB in a demo when there are FULL GAMES at that ammount. Hell, UT3 was 8GB and it had incredibly large ammounts of content for that ammount, and no one level or character baked properly had near that ammount of space wasted on the HD. I think it's just plain wasteful.

[Candescence]

Jesus, 1 GB? I agree, that's WAY too much, considering guys like me have download caps and stuff. Just for a demo? You gotta be kidding. I think you're better off right now trying to reduce the memory as much as physically possible without a large drop in visual quality, if you can.

[Rael0505]

I still say it's completely ridiculous that it could be a gig anyway. You're seriously doing something wrong if it's that big.

[Jetrock]

Will anyone download the game (the PC version, I mean), if the game was about, lets say... a gigabyte?

Yes, if it was 2 GB I'd still download it, mostly for the fact that both my mom's pc and my laptop can handle it without much of a problem. Well my mom's pc may experience some slowdown, but it still wouldn't be much of an issue on my side.

[Neo Hazard]

I almost think the size would attract more interest.

Sort of like "Well, this is big, so it must be good!"

Either way, I'd download, everything looks awesome so far.

[BlazeHedgehog]

I still say it's completely ridiculous that it could be a gig anyway. You're seriously doing something wrong if it's that big.

Pretty much. If you really have to leave your assets decompressed to keep the engine running as well as it does, then your optimization sucks. Bloated image and music files is not a valid method of optimization.

Not to mention one could make the argument that decompression algorithms have a negligible impact on performance. I'm not saying they have zero performance impact, but the impact is probably so low that it's not really worth the trouble.

[Endri]

Before anything... sorry for the absentness.

Unfortunatelly, my internet conection was cut a week ago, without previous notice.

In fact, it appears my entire life decided to get a dive in the pound of misfortune. This subject might look irrelevant to our topic in question, but it's the completly opposity case.

So, it seems most of you found the idea of a GB nearly surreal.

Granted, the entire concept is unrealistic.

Although unrealistic, currently, the project folder is indeed a GB large. But that couldn't be counted for the actual, finished product. Let alone the demo.

Basically, every resource used in the project is raw, untouched, uncompressed data, at it's highest quality.

This is, however, only when dealing with the proccess of development. As the project development evolves, so does the resources, and thn, they need to be optmized and such.

I learnt that during the proccess of development of something, it is more valid to have everything in the most possible available size and quality, because it is more easy to scale down a image from a very high resolution to a more low resolution, while keeping the image profiles untouched and having little to none quality loss than scaling up a small image without distorting it for example (excuse me if I couldn't be any more clear).

That been said, the project doesn't necessarly need to be a GB large.

Yet...

Bloated image and music files is not a valid method of optimization.

... you know... stream. Streamming resources are a valid method of optimization when dealing with development of a big project. Not that the game itself is big, but the development of a entire engine made from scratch is in a entire diferent point of view. I, myself, and most developers agree that dynamically reading data from the disc is much more effective in this kind of situation, since you don't have to relly on load time and ram usage. You can see the results on the fly. So, according to the situation, it IS a valid optimization approach.

...then again...

Not to mention one could make the argument that decompression algorithms have a negligible impact on performance. I'm not saying they have zero performance impact, but the impact is probably so low that it's not really worth the trouble.

That, if you want a game that take three minutes to load each section of a level. Not to mention the use of ram memory. The performance might, and I say might, not be that high, but that doesn't free us from the fact that high level de/compression algorithms relly heavily on CPU performance AND takes time. That been said, the game could be only 10MB, but would take one entire hour just start. Okay, I could use simple de/compression routines, like, using 32kbps 22100Hz mono .OGG sounds for example. That's okay, for sounds, but lets take the images, for example, .JPG encoded images... so little difference in size, yet, such a huge difference in quality. I preffer DDS textures, since these can still keep compressed in the VRAM, while other formats necessarly have to be decompressed in the VRAM before usage.

I could dig even more deeper in the subject, but it turns out to be completly useless and unecessary.

Things could be more dynamic, like: "Is 1GB too much for you? Don't download it, then. Period."

For example, I didn't download Ashura: The Dark Reign because I would necessarly need to download UT as well, even though the game looks very interesting.

The entire post I made back then was to see if I should or should not update my assets to meet a more reasonable size. Which indeed is the most obvious action to take, specially because I'm with no internet conection. So I cannot host a 1GB pack even if I wanted.

Another thing is that as very well observed, little to no one would be able to experience the game before the end of 2009's SAGE.

But, by any way or another, it appears the PC version demo won't come in time for this SAGE, because of the internet fact, and because my Windows updated a driver without my knowledge, and, that incidend unleashed a unvolutary HD reformatting. In other words, completly loss of data.

The luck is that I have some backups of this new engine everywhere. I also used Recover My Files to restore most of the deleted files, so, the loss was severe, but minimal. Only a feel recent updates and assets I wond up losing really. However, thanks for all this trouble, I won't have enough time to "optmize" my resources to meet a, let's say, 10MB threshold for SAGE, which renders every statement I made above void, since, no net, no gig.

[Cyber Rat]

Ouch... I'm glad you managed to save as much of your project as possible. Btw, there's no official threshold, so maybe you could make something larger given it's full 3D? I don't 100MB... but like you said, you have an Internet problem...