Sonic Adventure 2 – Everything that is bad in a Sonic game

[snow toilet]

I definitely choose the first Sonic Adventure over it's sequel mainly because it is a dark and complicated story, so much different from the first.

Although, SA2 definitely has some of the best music I've ever heard in a game.

Prison Lane, Final Rush and Weapons Bed were it.

Oh my, I remember when I first played this game how much of a hard time I had.

Shit it took me two fucking days to beat the Final Rush.

Now I play that stage just because it's fun.

Definitely be the one to say I may never see GHZ in this.

Some of the stages are just so difficult.

Even after so many hours put in.

I'm air-balling when I say I'm somewhere in the mid 130's with emblems and my theory is that when I reach the low to mid 160's that it may be the most I'll ever obtain.

Why?

Two words: Cannon Core

So fucking ridiculous.

Not to mention those "Route" stages you have to do.

"Oh don't hit any of the cars."

I get a god damn E every time on that mission.

Don't even get me started on them there Chao Races.

I actually don't pay much attention to the Chao thing just because I'm to lazy to pick up another VMU to do the Chao Adventure 2.

Pretty much I'm out of space thanks to the LoZ Oracle games, Skies of Arcadia and Puzzle Bobble 4.

All in all, I'd definitely recommend SA2 in a heart beat but I still think it's one of the most difficult in the series.

[Delta Hedgehog]

I definitely choose the first Sonic Adventure over it's sequel mainly because it is a dark and complicated story, so much different from the first.

Although, SA2 definitely has some of the best music I've ever heard in a game.

Prison Lane, Final Rush and Weapons Bed were it.

Oh my, I remember when I first played this game how much of a hard time I had.

Shit it took me two fucking days to beat the Final Rush.

Now I play that stage just because it's fun.

Definitely be the one to say I may never see GHZ in this.

Some of the stages are just so difficult.

Even after so many hours put in.

I'm air-balling when I say I'm somewhere in the mid 130's with emblems and my theory is that when I reach the low to mid 160's that it may be the most I'll ever obtain.

Why?

Two words: Cannon Core

So fucking ridiculous.

Not to mention those "Route" stages you have to do.

"Oh don't hit any of the cars."

I get a god damn E every time on that mission.

Don't even get me started on them there Chao Races.

I actually don't pay much attention to the Chao thing just because I'm to lazy to pick up another VMU to do the Chao Adventure 2.

Pretty much I'm out of space thanks to the LoZ Oracle games, Skies of Arcadia and Puzzle Bobble 4.

All in all, I'd definitely recommend SA2 in a heart beat but I still think it's one of the most difficult in the series.

I managed to get all the Emblems in the Gamecube version. Plus I agree, Cannon's Core and the Route Missions can die in a house fire, especially Rouge's route missions.

[DimensionWarped]

Complicated? The whole Sonic Adventure 2 story can be summarized with pretty much every important detail in about 2 paragraphs. The game includes less than 10 minutes of dialog, and that's including rants. I've seen episodes of Johnny Bravo that would take more effort to explain than the plot of any Sonic Story except for maybe Sonic 2006.

Honestly, everything about this topic strikes me as misguided ranting about what was perceived to be wrong with certain games in the franchise when the real problems are almost entirely questions of style and game play. All this business about "monsters" somehow being a huge problem are just nonsense. Fighting monsters instead of robots never kept games like Adventure Island and Super Mario Brothers from being charming, and it isn't like the robots in Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colors offered a great deal more than monsters do. It's less about what the enemies are and much more about how they look and act.

And complicated stories aren't a big deal as long as they are delivered with a certain level of panache. Paper Mario: Thousand Year Door has a story that is at least as elaborate as the more elaborate Sonic games, and it has an assload more dialog while at the same time coming from an origin that is as humble as if not more so than Sonic the Hedgehog as far as story is concerned, yet because it lives up to the wackyness and cutesyness of its originating series, it works.

In general Pedro, I think you are barking up the wrong tree all over the place. It's all over everything you are saying really. I mean honestly, invisible walls? I don't remember that being much of an issue in Sonic Adventure 2. In fact, I seem to recall being able to interact with a great deal of the scenery without having to deal with any particular amount of arbitrary collisions. And part of the reason for that I think is because the scenery was just more simplistic and level-focused than the equivalent stuff in many modern platformers.

And since you can't talk about Sonic Adventure 2 without talking about the Wesley that is Shadow the Hedgehog... I think it's important to note that there is nothing innately wrong with the green ranger trope that he personified. Everything that was going to be wrong with Shadow as a character was already set in stone before he was even conceived on the drawing board and it's simply a symptom of the style. The problem with these games isn't the fact that they have you fighting space lizards or that the characters are too cliche or even that they have more involved than the usual plots, it's all about the 'how' of the situation. The games themselves lacked personality more so than the major decisions that went into them.

And yes, it's worth noting that Sonic Colors did a lot better with that largely because it tried to have a personality. I still don't think it went far enough though. And Sonic 4 was absolute shit on that front.

[Asuma]

So, enslaving an entire alien race isn't dark?

I loved Sonic Adventure 2, mostly for the gameplay. Stories really don't interest me all that much, unless is an RPG. I don't think SA2 ruined Sonic up till Sonic Colors. I personally think it's was just Sega try to appeal to the younger fan base. Companies are going to try to do what they think that makes money.

[Dark Raven X]

It wasn't presented as being "that bad" right up until the end, when it turned out Eggman was converting them into Nega wisps. That was 'dark' - sure.

[DimensionWarped]

So, enslaving an entire alien race isn't dark?

I loved Sonic Adventure 2, mostly for the gameplay. Stories really don't interest me all that much, unless is an RPG. I don't think SA2 ruined Sonic up till Sonic Colors. I personally think it's was just Sega try to appeal to the younger fan base. Companies are going to try to do what they think that makes money.

It's no darker than something you'd expect out of an episode of Captain Planet... but that's kind of what I'm getting at. Nothing about Sonic has ever ventured outside of the realm of the kid friendly, it's just that there is a lack of tastefulness and style that makes all of these things seem like serious transgressions when it's really just a symptom of a lack of passion and artistry.

[Asuma]

Yea, when you think about it, look at cartoon shows, there has been death or even darker, or more suggestive themes. Like that Spongebob movie.

[luksamuk]

I personally think it's was just Sega try to appeal to the younger fan base. Companies are going to try to do what they think that makes money.

^ This.

Unfortunately, in the end of any game, a good return (call that MONEY) is the most important thing. But it also depends on the menthality of the enterprise itself. SEGA was having trouble with Sonic, wasn't being lucrative as it was supposed to. So, they try to "save" the franchise. Megaman, otherwise, is something that Capcom is trying to discard right now because of the same reason. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[shadowgoten]

lol sonic fans, it's threads like this that make me laugh.

[P3DR0]

lol sonic fans, it's threads like this that make me laugh.

What? Threads sharing opinion and with some pretty good discussion makes you laugh? And I thought that my sense of humor was terrible by making jokes of dead babies.

Megaman, otherwise, is something that Capcom is trying to discard right now because of the same reason. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Capcom is not sending Megaman to the trash as far as I can tell. They'd just cancelled one title...

So people misunderstood what I meant when I said "dark", of course that I meant the plots, but not just them. When I'd said "dark" I was more refering to the idea of dark, a serious scheme, a serious thematic, rivals battling to dead, Robotnik's robots using machine guns and missiles, etc...

Another item that people misunderstood was the "invisible walls", if you go back on the topc you'll see that there is an "/" separating invisible walls from linear level design. A little grammar tip: When this happens it's made for create the idea of "Or" and not "And". So read as "Invisible Walls OR Linear level desing".

But also the game didn't had much invisible walls indeed, because the level design was terrible already. Not that "invisible walls" make a better level design but their finality is to not allow the player to pass through an certain area from the stage. But Sonic Adventue 2 didn't had invisible walls, because the paths were lines by ifself, I mean, or you follow straight thro or you jump to your death.

Get it? Got it? Good.

And yes, it's worth noting that Sonic Colors did a lot better with that largely because it tried to have a personality. I still don't think it went far enough though.

It may not have went far enough, but still, you can't say that worth nothing. Sonic is starting to be good now, that let go this Sonic Adventure 2 thematic and started following a mix between Unleashed and Classic games. It's not perfect, we all know it, but hey it's already better than a decade of games.

First of all the thread is getting on the wrong tracks that I planned. Don't misunderstand me, all I wanted to do was to break this taboo wich is SA2. A game that you can't call "bad", even having all the issues that we all complain about Sonic games nowadays. It's clear as water that's all of this started/intensificated (OR intensificated, remember this) in Sonic Adventure 2. The part where I say that the game sucks as it is, well that's just my opinion but if you like linear, without exploration or any decent level design. With a bad story, bad gameplay on every character (except the Hedgehogs), well that's your taste, isn't it? :3

[Serephim]

IMO, i really really hate this game and im going to rant about it, positioning all my opinions as sheer facts in order to make all the lovers of this game finally realize that it sucks balls

Not ever going to happen.

You know, i go through this alot with alot of games. Like Final Fantasy 7. I still regard it as the absolute best videogame i've ever played in my life. However, there are people who played FF6 before that and believe IT was the best game ever made. To make it worse, they might have hated the story, characters, or the overall changes that FF7 brought along, and thus will bash it to no end to express how much they hate the game.

....Ahem. ANYWAY

Dark/Complicated story, bro.

I don't think anyone can classify Sonic Adventure 2 as a "dark game". Complicated story? Nnnnnahhhhh. Half the moon gets vaporized in SA2? Yeah, well, an entire city gets completely tsunami'd in SA1. We're even.

Sonic Adventure 2's storyline was no different than Sonic Adventure's storyline in terms of seriousness. In fact, if you really want to talk about "dark" storylines, then you might as well throw in all the Genesis titles into the mix as well, with the animals becoming robots, falling continents and GIGANTIC space death fighters with an epic showdown in a level called "Doomsday Zone". Very upbeat. Or perhaps Sonic CD, and the whole "bad future" concept where oceans become burning oil fountains, all the animals are dead and so on?

Nah. About the only BAD thing that EVER came from SA2's storyline was....well, Shadow the Hedgehog. Which is quite the ironic tale, seeing as Shadow was one of the best parts about that game. But it is quite obvious Shadow was not meant to survive the events of SA2. You can't blame an original for the fanservice it spins off.

In the end, Sonic Adventure 2 is a shitty game who’s defended by nostalgia’s sake. It was made back in the time where Sonic didn’t used to fail much, so mistakes were tolerated. But it was SA2 who threw the snowball downhill. And like on any good cartoon, it was getting bigger, bigger, bigger, and finally it came and made a strike in our hopes and dreams.

I really hate it when people try to use nostalgia as a cannon to bash something. It's just so annoying. Do you really believe that Sonic Adventure 2 is the reason Sonic started to suck? There are so many damn reasons why this could have happened that it isn't even funny.

Anyway, Sonic Games are mostly just a big dumpster of bad ideas and half attempts. Sonic Adventure 2 was a great game, just not for everybody i guess. I chock most of the Sonic the Hedgehog suck up to them seriously not even trying. They've been simply half-asssing their way to the bank. There's a reason Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colors was well received by the fans -- It's obvious they fucking TRIED for a change.

Most sonic games aren't "bad games", but they're terrible when you compare them to the past works. But games like Shadow, Sonic 2k6 and Sonic 4 were just complete slaps to the face in terms of "we actually care about quality" from Sega.

[DimensionWarped]

On the Shadow death and then revival issue, it's funny you should say that, because if we think about Sonic in the context of the 90's and the content of your typical kid's shows that you might say it drew from, there's basically no way a 'heroic sacrifice' wouldn't have resulted in popping right back up in the next episode. In fact, the exact fashion in how Shadow 'dies' in SA2 is basically the same as the ending to Sonic the Hedgehog 2, and even the rescue mentioned in Shadow the Hedgehog ended up being exactly the same type of thing. The only difference is that they put way too much nonsensical drama into the ending of SA2 and then spread it out over a couple games... and that also is the exact sort of thing you would expect out of the 90's if you'd ever watched something like Spider Man where characters seemingly fall to their death quite frequently only to have survived, complete with big 'NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO's and other such stuff.

[Streak Thunderstorm]

p3dro, why you mad tho?

[JetHawk95]

I can see why these points are valid and I do agree with them,

But still I like SA2 and as a experienced speedrunner of it how can I not?

Its not so much SA2 which is a bad game its the trends it started off, But SA1 does have some stuff to blame for this.

Sonic 2006 could of been a really good game but it was rushed..

As for the dark story thing? I like it, I'm sick of little kid freindly storylines, Sonic 2006's story I actually liked due to its cleverness, With the whole Time paradox shit they'd actually thought it through and made sure it worked.. Just cus some little 8 year old kid who's not even got an idea about the Genesis games, Doesnt like the "Dark" Story it doesn't mean its crap, And quite frankly if they want a cute little storyline they can go and suck on Mario's balls for a little while. After all the adventures hes been through and the death defying events, Id say Sonic has the right to be a bit cocky and a bit more "Okay now Im not taking any mercy, Im getting Fucked off with you Robotnick!"

About the Linear Level Thing, I do agree with you, The levels are too linear compared to the Genesis games but remember SA1 and SA2 where the first fully 3D Sonic games, You cant knock them for that, And if I remember rightly levels like Emerald Coast and Final Rush DID have multiple paths, Okay fair point they went back to the original path in time, But even the genesis games did that, SA2&1 even had paths and hidden tunnels what leaded to hidden 1Up's..

They realized the Tails and Eggman Mecha thing was a bad idea.. I don't see it in any further games..

The Monster Thing? I Think monsters/creatures make a change from Eggmans countless failures of machines... There should be a balance, and in 2006 there was quite a few BIG Machines,Robots.. Even including a whole new Egg Carrier.

Final thing, The Time Eater?

Im completely with you on this one... Sonic Generations is meant to celebrate 20 years of sonic, And if your gunna have Classic Sonic there then it needs to be a big Robotnick/Eggman creation like the Genesis games. im not saying it has to be childish, Cus theat could easily be achieved by some cute monster aswell it needs to be Epic...

[luksamuk]

Not wanting to be a complete jerk, but "Time Eater" is something logical to make sense on a possible story for Sonic Generations. Without this space-and-time wormholes stuff, remaking levels wih a Classic and a Modern engine would just seem pointless.

[Serephim]

On the Shadow death and then revival issue, it's funny you should say that, because if we think about Sonic in the context of the 90's and the content of your typical kid's shows that you might say it drew from, there's basically no way a 'heroic sacrifice' wouldn't have resulted in popping right back up in the next episode. In fact, the exact fashion in how Shadow 'dies' in SA2 is basically the same as the ending to Sonic the Hedgehog 2, and even the rescue mentioned in Shadow the Hedgehog ended up being exactly the same type of thing. The only difference is that they put way too much nonsensical drama into the ending of SA2 and then spread it out over a couple games... and that also is the exact sort of thing you would expect out of the 90's if you'd ever watched something like Spider Man where characters seemingly fall to their death quite frequently only to have survived, complete with big 'NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO's and other such stuff.

Yeah, well. In most shows it's a "OHHHHH NOOOOO" kind of death, but there's no reason to really believe the character is dead. It felt like SA2 gave Shadow a proper sending though, with the whole ending dedicated to his death and the cheesy transparent picture screen at the end. Even for a "90's show" type of drama, his style of revival was just...desperate. Regardless if they would have done it or not. The most ridiculous thing about it is how his personality just completely went into a kind of "dark" character he wasn't even like from the beginning of SA2, just to fill a role.

I'm not so mad that he was revived, i was just kind of sad at how they did it. SA2's Hero/Dark was a good idea for SA2, but after that it just seriously became a very, very bad gimmick.

As for the dark story thing? I like it, I'm sick of little kid freindly storylines, Sonic 2006's story I actually liked due to its cleverness, With the whole Time paradox shit they'd actually thought it through and made sure it worked.. Just cus some little 8 year old kid who's not even got an idea about the Genesis games, Doesnt like the "Dark" Story it doesn't mean its crap, And quite frankly if they want a cute little storyline they can go and suck on Mario's balls for a little while.

It's a Sonic the Hedgehog game. It doesn't matter if the kid is 8, he won't care. As long as he can run around with sonic, he's going to enjoy the game.

Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 didn't have "dark" storylines, they just had events in them that were a tad more serious than the typical sonic game....but like DW said, it was nothing not typical of a 90's "hero" show, and honestly nothing not typical of a genesis sonic game either. In SA the giant monster comes and destroys everything and supersonic saves the day. In SA2 sonic "dies" only to be alive during the very next stage, eggman wants to take over the world, and at the VERY END OF THE GAME, you have to save the planet from a doomsday scenario. SA2 felt like one of those stories that kids could love but older people could live with as well with better understanding.

The threshold comes about when they try to literally make the game an emotional "serious" story, where mortality is a constant issue and whatnot. You know, Sonic 2k6 or Shadow the Hedghog. There is absolutely no reason to try to make Shadow appeal to teen gamers by making him yell "DAMN" everytime he loses his rings...do you see how fucking stupid that sounds? Sonic 2k6....dont even get me started on that game. I seriously don't think there was a single good thing about it. Pity, because it looked so promising when it was being developed. When i saw the video of sonic getting Special Beam Cannon'd and then being kissed by the human chick, i then decided Sega had lost their minds in the pathetic attempt to make Sonic a popular game among teens again.

[shadowgoten]

lol streak

[Shockey Rai]

I'm probably one of the few people that likes Shadow The Hedgehog. The Swearing Seems to fit Shadow's & Knuckles's character for some reason. But not Sonic & Espio

Sonic Adventure 2 is my favorite game. i cant believe you would diss it. Sure it had Poor Translation but do i care? Fuck No! Did the being forced to play that character anony me? Hell No.

[DimensionWarped]

I don't care for the swearing aside for the camp value it adds to the game.

[Serephim]

Shadow the Hedgehog really wasn't that bad of a game. If it looked better, was more solid, and didn't have any cutscenes or talking, it actually would have been pretty great. It was the last sonic game i bought, though. Havent spent money on one since. (Well, except for Sonic Rush. That game was great. More sonic titles should have Ghost features, especially with this new "SPEEDRUN" shit going on it only makes sense.)

It had serious fucking problems but in the end i enjoyed it. It had tons of stages and stuff. I remember when it came out, alot of us had fun with the content and whatnot. And a few stages were a real blast to play through. (Mad Matrix is one i can remember)

Honestly it had more creativity to it than any of the newer Sonic titles that have been released in terms of level design. In fact, i wish the modern sonic titles would take cues from it.

Anyway, P3dr0 you seriously need to realize that there's a clear distinction between bad ideas and bad execution. That's really what all of this is about, and that's where Sonic's issues have been lying for years now. Sonic Adventure 2 had little to nothing to do with the downfall of sonic. The fucked up design choices present in the newer titles that ruined the games are an indication that it was going to happen anyway.

For example, SA2 introduced Rails to the series, but there hasn't been a single game since that has used them in the way SA2 used them. In SA2 they were primarily used to enhance the level, unless it was dependent on them. It was like an extension of the platforming idea.

Nowadays they ARE the level. They've gone from a gameplay element to an outlet for cinematic eyecandy. They aren't even the same gimmick that they were in SA2 anymore.

Final Rush was probably one of my favorite stages in the whole game, and it pretty much consisted of nothing but rails, but still revolved around momentum-based gameplay. Rail Canyon/Bullet Station in Sonic Heroes was the last time i had significant fun using rails in a sonic game. Now you just jump on and boost your way to the next 2D segment. And then jump on a rail on a 2D segment and experience even less control...

[Gsuki]

but if you like linear, without exploration or any decent level design. With a bad story, bad gameplay on every character (except the Hedgehogs), well that's your taste, isn't it? :3

Not to act like an asshole, but saying something like that it's like stating what you think about a game is superior from what other people think. It's just like saying "Oh, you like shitty things? It's your taste, isn't it?". I know people that likes things that I do not, like, I hate Sonic 4, but I have some friends that liked that game, and I respect their opinion on it, without changing mine.

Really, it's ok to make a thread to discuss about a game, but try to act superior to what other people think is just... I don't even know what to say.

On topic, this is by far the worst start of a thread I've ever read. Complaining about invisible walls? Really? I never got to run into one of those to the point of getting frustrated about it. In fact, if there weren't invisible walls in some places, you would rather go through pointless places or just fall to death.

And exploration, seriously? I know exploration is not a bad thing, I know it can make some things better in games, but really, a game is NOT bad if it doesn't have that much of exploration, and if you are comparing it to other Sonic games, then here's one tip: Judge a game by what it is, not by what you wanted it to be. They obviously aimed to make levels that you wouldn't waste much time seeing things like "oh, different paths, let's explore them all", that's why they are called "action" stages.

Getting forced to play with a different character? You're complaining on gameplay variation? So you prefer Sonic Adventure, where you HAVE to play with every character to unlock the last story mode, not to mention once you beat the story with one character, you have to beat the story mode with another character in the SAME levels. Sonic Adventure 2 might force you to play as other characters, but really, at least they have different levels instead of being the same level that a character just went through.

Adventure field? You think the lack of adventure field makes the game bad as well? I respect that some people might like those, but saying SA2 is bad because it doesn't have that is ridiculous, because I personally think that adventure field featured possibly one of the most pointless explorations ever, and if there was adventure field in SA2, how the hell would you move from places like from space to Earth?

Oh monsters, you're saying it's bad because SA2 had just ONE lizard prototype in the end of the game. So let's say that some Contra games are bad because there are aliens instead of soldiers to fight. Come on, really?

In the end, Sonic Adventure 2 is a shitty game who’s defended by nostalgia’s sake. It was made back in the time where Sonic didn’t used to fail much, so mistakes were tolerated. But it was SA2 who threw the snowball downhill. And like on any good cartoon, it was getting bigger, bigger, bigger, and finally it came and made a strike in our hopes and dreams.

You should change that one part.

And like on any good cartoon, it was getting bigger, bigger, bigger, and finally it came and made a strike in MY hopes and dreams.

You shouldn't speak for everyone if not many people agree with you.

I've seen many people discussing what made Sonic go downhill, but I never seen such thing like this before. Though I've seen so many people acting like "Oh hey, this game has something I don't like, I'll nitpick now and say that everything is bad in this game", so this isn't really new to me.