FlashTHD Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 inb4 arguments about how to fix Sonic Some advice guys: remember this quote the next time a Sega West marketing/PR dimwit responds to reporters with worthless information like that. And snipe any threads about it (hint hint). Contrary to popular first impression, when it comes to comments from that department, nothing of value was lost. oh my now what am I saying! Kotaku can't have enough excuses to beat the Elise Kissing Sonic scene into their readers' heads a few dozen more times amirite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 It takes one thing to make a good game: a good dev team. And I'd imagine the time needed to find, set to contract, and organize such a team CAN be lengthy especially for a huge companies with lots of obligations and from a guy in his position, that could very well be what he's referring to (who am I kidding, he's just doing PR). Which doesn't change the fact that the reason Sonic games suck is because SEGA doesn't allocate the resources needed to make them not suck (and they're probably making profits off Sonic as-is and thus see little reason to do that; can't say I agree or disagree with that mentality). edit: Or do they think it's like a sports team, you have to "rebuild" and have a few crappy seasons before you have a good one? How does that work with gaming though? Actually, that's a pretty good analogy. In both cases, you're in the process acquiring prospects, some of whom develop into all-stars, some fizzle out, some just remain permanently immature. Now I have no idea if this is actually how it happens, but I could definitely see it that way. I mean, you don't hear much of the behind-the-scenes of the video game industry and what you here seems to suggest that it's very mechanical and sweatshop-y save for a select few big names, but there's still no getting around the need for talent and teamwork in any project, much less a creative one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry_ Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Honestly I don't think SEGA are gonna get it right any time soon. There will be a few more games that "take a step in the right direction" before another good Sonic game is made. Besides waiting for the light at the top of the trash can, the only other solution I think is to lend the rights for sonic to another company who can do it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Dammit, how did I know a marketing argument was gonna breakout? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron C-T Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 The same way I know the next Sonic game's probably gonna suck. Bing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serephim Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Disclaimer: This isn't really intended to be aimed completely at you, it's just an examination from what I know of the game and the franchise. I've only played the demo because I refuse to buy/rent/borrow anything released unless it's decent. And being that a demo is kind of, I dunno, geared at getting you to buy the game and should, therefor be sort of exemplary of the full product that should be enough. The game still carries the same basic reliance on throwing the character along a small path suspended over air, the fascination with putting players on a set of self-propelling rails that traverse various portions of the level, repetitive level design; the nearly complete absence of rolling or any other gameplay elements outside of running, jumping, and walking into scripted event triggers. It takes the same level design problems the 2D games have involving level design and the ability to "boost" and destroy enemies merely by bumping into them and decides that slapping 3D graphics over it is a good idea. The series tendencies of simply taking new ideas (2D, Werehog, Combat, on-rails) and throwing in faux oldschool elements (adventure fields, it's only Sonic- kinda, oh-but-it's-2D, supa-fast) instead of just stepping back and trying to actually fix the problem. My guess is that they simply dont see the problem the way you do. You're looking for rolling, non-scripted loops and slopes, timed jumps and gimmicks...while they're trying to realize the fact that Sonic the Hedgehog is allegedly supposed to move at 768+ MPH. We might as well just realize that Sonic the Hedgehog videogames are no longer platformers like the old ones are. Some things are retained, but its not what they care to accomplish anymore. An "oldschool realized" sonic game that moves as fast as Unleashed just isnt going to happen anytime soon. Not done right, anyway. Is that such a horrible thing? Well, it just depends on where you're coming from. Sonic Unleashed was a good start. It took a concept and (! surprisingly) did very well on it. The daytime sections of Sonic Unleashed were exactly how they advertised them -- breakneck fast, and they played very well. You can argue that the game plays itself, but seriously...While obviously some oldschool elements are impossible to revive while the stages are designed to have you move around while peaking 300MPH, they did get to introduce their own, and they work pretty well for what its worth. Even in IGN's bullshit ass review and scoring of the game, they played up the Daytime sections of the game very well. If the future sonic games are like the DAYTIME levels of Unleashed, then they're definately on the right track. They had daytime speed levels, and then the shorter "obstacle course" levels. If they remove trying to water down the game to fill it up with bullshit character additions and sidestories like the nighttime levels, they can focus on making those "obstacle course" levels actually full-blown acts instead of what appeared to be almost user-made through a map editor, and i think they'd have a pretty badass sonic game on their hands. But, like you guys have mentioned, they are all about making the money. I believe I read it from sega themselves that Werehog was born in part from Daytime sections of Unleashed being too expensive / time consuming / "much work" for them to make an entire game out of. If they aren't going to spend the time to make a good game, we aren't going to get a good game. However all this shitty talk is useless. Even if they shell out the time and money for another Unleashed caliber game, they're always going to shit out your Black Knights, Shadow the Hedgehogs, Secret Rings (be truthful. The only reason that game got praise is because it was one of the first Wii Sonic titles. It was far worse than Heroes.) and 06's. Those can be as bad as they want because they get them money anyway. As long as they can bank off that, I don't think they're going to care anytime soon. If they are just going to ignore the shitty reviews they keep getting, there is no point in hoping for a good sonic game to come along. So, the next game will tell the story. They did really good with one half of unleashed -- if they decide to half-ass the next one they develop, then you might as well stop searching for Sonic "done right", because it'll be obvious at that point they really dont give a fuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1UpFoot Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Sega should really do what Epic Games does with it's Unreal Tournament series. Release a new edition about every 3 years, so they have time to focus on it and make the game better than the last. But what Epic is currently doing, "staying off Unreal Tournament for several years to focus on the Gears series." Is exactly what Sega should do with Sonic, stay off the series until they make a quality game, and maybe start another series as well. And probably releasing a game in the series every three years is better than releasing one yearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serephim Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Well, they have the Phantasy Star series that they seem set on destroying with mediocrity as well... Im getting scared they're gonna start whoring that series too. Phantasy Star Zero made me cry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron C-T Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 You're looking for rolling, non-scripted loops and slopes, timed jumps and gimmicks...while they're trying to realize the fact that Sonic the Hedgehog is allegedly supposed to move at 768+ MPH. We might as well just realize that Sonic the Hedgehog videogames are no longer platformers like the old ones are. I realize that, but that doesn't change the fact that the engines have sucked for a long, long time. It doesn't change how Sonic apparently gets in a soapy tub with his shoes on and steps out onto a mat covered in baby oil before running across a ceramic-tile hallway cleverly disguised as a marble pathway (he's slippery as shit, the controls have needed to be tighter for ages). It still doesn't change that, oldschool or not, it's not completely interesting nor challenging to simply walk into an enemy and have them die- it's been the other way around for ages and for good reason (here's looking at almost every platformer/sidescrolling game ever- not just Sonic). It's not a horrible thing to go in a "new direction" but as I've mentioned, the series goes in a "new direction" with every, if not every other, release. Name a single game that didn't go in a relatively new direction that wasn't Sonic Adventure 2- they change up the format by throwing in random weapons, characters, gameplay modes, etc with almost every game and never settle. You're right, I can argue that the game plays itself. And I will. Regardless of what they're trying to do, I shouldn't feel like the game is playing itself. I've played the GameCube release of F-Zero and that game was just as fast and yet didn't make me feel like I could just let the controller go. And if the game really is about moving at breakneck speeds, I'm inquired to wonder why they don't have the camera a bit further away from the character so that you have a bit longer to realize that the auto-play is only momentary and that you need to tap a button to slide under that wall otherwise the flow of the game breaks as you come to a complete stop. If they take out the night levels, they'll probably just replace them with something equally horrid and, to me, having the night levels in there in the first place rather than, as you said, fixing the "obstacle course levels" or, I dunno focusing on fixing what's broken in the first place (see above a bit where I mention that the controls have never really been tight). As for your final paragraph, it's confusing. All you've done is suggest they aren't going for oldschool, which I get, and that it somehow makes up for it in it's on way, yet you say they didn't put nearly enough time into it. Next Gen wasn't going for oldschool, but that still doesn't excuse being able to stand upside down at the top of a loop. I'm just wondering man, you say that after the next game it'll be really obvious "at that point" that things won't get any better. It's been like 5 games and maybe just as many years, shouldn't "that point" have passed by now? Isn't that what people have been saying for every release since who-knows-when? I'll see what you say in a year when the next game comes out and inevitably crashes and burns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serephim Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 I realize that, but that doesn't change the fact that the engines have sucked for a long, long time. It doesn't change how Sonic apparently gets in a soapy tub with his shoes on and steps out onto a mat covered in baby oil before running across a ceramic-tile hallway cleverly disguised as a marble pathway (he's slippery as shit, the controls have needed to be tighter for ages). It still doesn't change that, oldschool or not, it's not completely interesting nor challenging to simply walk into an enemy and have them die- it's been the other way around for ages and for good reason (here's looking at almost every platformer/sidescrolling game ever- not just Sonic). It's not a horrible thing to go in a "new direction" but as I've mentioned, the series goes in a "new direction" with every, if not every other, release. Name a single game that didn't go in a relatively new direction that wasn't Sonic Adventure 2- they change up the format by throwing in random weapons, characters, gameplay modes, etc with almost every game and never settle. Well thats where the opinion part comes in. If you think about the daytime stage control of sonic (unleashed 360), I dont think sonic controls bad at all. At least no worse than he did in the adventure series. About the only "slippery" game was Heroes and Shadow (which used the Heroes engine), but after playing through the game you should naturally adapt to it. Unleashed's controls were fine. I don't really know what your idea of "tight controls" are if Unleashed controlled badly. Looks like platforming to me. I really dont know where you guys are pulling the control issues from anymore. You're right, I can argue that the game plays itself. And I will. Regardless of what they're trying to do, I shouldn't feel like the game is playing itself. I've played the GameCube release of F-Zero and that game was just as fast and yet didn't make me feel like I could just let the controller go. And if the game really is about moving at breakneck speeds, I'm inquired to wonder why they don't have the camera a bit further away from the character so that you have a bit longer to realize that the auto-play is only momentary and that you need to tap a button to slide under that wall otherwise the flow of the game breaks as you come to a complete stop. If they take out the night levels, they'll probably just replace them with something equally horrid and, to me, having the night levels in there in the first place rather than, as you said, fixing the "obstacle course levels" or, I dunno focusing on fixing what's broken in the first place (see above a bit where I mention that the controls have never really been tight). Well i can argue that they should let you know in the genesis games when you're going to run into spikes, a wall, an enemy with a bumper on its back, a crab thats going to punch you off the platform your trying to jump on, a pit of spikes under a broken bridge there is no recovering from, ....seriously, no offense but these attacks are trifles if anything. They apply to every sonic game that ever existed, save for the camera problems. And I'd like to point out that I had no unacceptable problems with the camera in even Sonic Heroes, unless it was a flat-out glitch...in which case the genesis games had MORE then their share of those too, and YES they very much got you killed on occasion (if not outright killed you themselves.) Im not defending the newschool completely it has its serious share of flaws. Im just saying these problems are nothing new to the series, or to videogames period. You guys talk about sliding like you dont know how to stop yourself from flying off a cliff, or like the camera just rides up sonic's ass the whole level. Trial-n-Error level design is NOTHING new to sonic. You act like you've never flew into an invisible trap of spikes or ran off a cliff in sonic before. As for your final paragraph, it's confusing. All you've done is suggest they aren't going for oldschool, which I get, and that it somehow makes up for it in it's on way, yet you say they didn't put nearly enough time into it. Next Gen wasn't going for oldschool, but that still doesn't excuse being able to stand upside down at the top of a loop. I'm just wondering man, you say that after the next game it'll be really obvious "at that point" that things won't get any better. It's been like 5 games and maybe just as many years, shouldn't "that point" have passed by now? Isn't that what people have been saying for every release since who-knows-when? I'll see what you say in a year when the next game comes out and inevitably crashes and burns. Naw, what I was saying is the part of Sonic Unleashed that was actually SONIC was, in my opinion, an amazing entry. However i do understand the game in full is what counts, so yeah it fell below expectations. The reason i said "the next game will tell" is because what they accomplished with Unleashed was a big accomplishment -- people enjoyed the daytime sections of Unleashed universally. Next-gen, on the other hand, had not a single thing done right in it save for the soundtrack and a few cutscenes, and the content in those retarded cutscenes in most cases nullifies that plus. They did something right for once -- IMO unleashed is one of THE prettiest games released as of late, and the speed sections were fun. So yeah scatta, we just have a different opinion on this. You seem to 100% hate the direction, im just a bit more open to it. I feel unleashed had tons of promise to it, and if they do the next game 100% SONIC the HEDGEHOG (not Sonic the were___ or Sonic the Soundbird), then i think they'll have a game worthy of praise on their hands. However they can (and likely will) just continue to be farmers. I don't know. So in a year if the game crashes and burns, then it crashes and burns. Not like it'll burn me during the process, I seriously stopped caring ages ago. Im just tired of all the senseless bashing thats going on -- its like listening to Fanboys argue why one game system sucks over the other. So yes I do agree with you on the next sonic game most likely sucking. Judging from the track record, there is a very high chance of it sucking...but heres to better fortune i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborg_ar Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Funny fact: Sonic's top speed (he can reach by himself with his feet on flat, dry ground) is 33Km/h (20.5MPH) in the original genesis games. i have found while developing my 3d engine that going faster than that makes control much more difficult unless you find the correct magic acceleration and friction numbers trough tons of playtesting... i still couldn't find them D: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron C-T Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 I completely hate the new direction? Hardly, there are a few decent concepts. I've already stated that the way they did mach speed looks like it would actually be enjoyable, although that's probably the way it should've been done in Next Gen anyway. I do like the idea of switching to 2D. Still doesn't make the overall game any less broken or hampered by night levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimensionWarped Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Worse than Heroes? I don't care if it is Secret Rings, no Sonic game aside from Labyrinth deserves that title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flame6753 Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Worse than Heroes? I don't care if it is Secret Rings, no Sonic game aside from Labyrinth deserves that title. I am sad to say that Secret Rings takes the crown for worst 3D sonic game. It makes sonic 2006 seem like sonic adventure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serephim Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Worse than Heroes? I don't care if it is Secret Rings, no Sonic game aside from Labyrinth deserves that title. Well first I wasn't going to type that, until I remembered how gay ALL the music in that game was. Its downright embarassing. I'd never play SatSR anywhere else but my room. At least in heroes I could quickly skip past the Title Screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimensionWarped Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 I am sad to say that Secret Rings takes the crown for worst 3D sonic game. It makes sonic 2006 seem like sonic adventure. Maybe if you are high or something. Sonic 2006 has ten times the frustration of Secret Rings and unlike Secret Rings, it doesn't have the humility to forgo the life limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flame6753 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Maybe if you are high or something. Sonic 2006 has ten times the frustration of Secret Rings and unlike Secret Rings, it doesn't have the humility to forgo the life limit. You might be right. I have never played through either game. In fact, I've only played the first level of both games before quitting them. But both of them are def competing for worst. When I think worst sonic game, secret rings comes to my mind. Sonic 06 also does, but secret rings pops up first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candescence Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 You might be right. I have never played through either game. In fact, I've only played the first level of both games before quitting them. But both of them are def competing for worst. When I think worst sonic game, secret rings comes to my mind. Sonic 06 also does, but secret rings pops up first. You should play through more of both, Secret Rings is pretty decent, Sonic 06 is simply an abomination. Terrible plot, bugs galore, horrible design... The worst part of the game was the speed sections. Actually, avoid 06 like the plague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flame6753 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 You should play through more of both, Secret Rings is pretty decent, Sonic 06 is simply an abomination. Terrible plot, bugs galore, horrible design... The worst part of the game was the speed sections. Actually, avoid 06 like the plague. I might give secret rings a try, but I have watched my friend do most of the game. You see, we did a little test. He held forward on the joystick, and was able to get through more than half the levels. Occasionally, he would press the jump button. Same thing for black knight. I don't think games like that are worth mine or others time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candescence Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 I might give secret rings a try, but I have watched my friend do most of the game. You see, we did a little test. He held forward on the joystick, and was able to get through more than half the levels. Occasionally, he would press the jump button. Same thing for black knight. I don't think games like that are worth mine or others time Have we been playing the same game? Mind you, SR doesn't use a stick, and that claim sounds absolutely absurd, that should have been impossible without dying a million times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawr Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Personally I found Secret Rings to be worse than 06. The controls I found to be unresponsive, I hated the soundtrack, and though it was graphically well done for the time - I could not for the life of me enjoy the stages because of the stupid missions you had to do just to get to the next level. If anyone is to complain for any game about there being stupid 'town missions' how about complaining about the tiresome objectives they try and have you do in Secret Rings. Which is very sad really, I was really really looking forward to it. When I actually played it it just disappointed me so much. A lot of people were saying it was the best thing evarr111one, but it had a lot of huge flaws to it that turned me off in the end. Controls were the biggest downfall for me though, very very unresponsive. 06 had its fair share of problems, don't get me wrong, but I had a lot worse of a time with Secret Rings. I probably never will beat that game... Although the party mode is fun to play with my sister, even with all the unresponsive controls haha. The violin one makes me laugh at how bad I am at it. That is just my opinion though, I know a lot of people do like the game so I'm probably just in the minority here when I don't really think it was all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asuma Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Sega fails. We all know. However, kids are the market, I say this because of parents. Parents that will buy their little brats anything they want and my friends, there's a lot of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimensionWarped Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 You might be right. I have never played through either game. In fact, I've only played the first level of both games before quitting them. But both of them are def competing for worst. When I think worst sonic game, secret rings comes to my mind. Sonic 06 also does, but secret rings pops up first. See, thats why you should actually play a game before talking out your ass about it. Sonic and the Secret Rings starts out lousy and becomes a good amount better as you progress. Sonic 2006 starts out lousy and only becomes worse as you progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheonix Gamma Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 I liked how Sonic got faster and faster, and I dumped all those awesome moves on him. Then you'd shoot at a motherfucker, shoot straight to the ground, then immediately go into an all out sprint oh fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck I think Sega needs to figure out what they want Sonic to be, because they don't know what the fuck Sonic is or will be. One game he's a knight, another he's a wolfhog, and another he's playing tonsil hockey with a human, and they're so wrapped up in giving him a new friend every goddamn game. Sega: sit down, and figure what the fuck you want Sonic to be. At least Mario's always represented the same thing these past 20something years. Let me know when you stick with something. I quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ristar Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 You've got to hand it to Nintendo, they know how to extrapolate their characters much better than Sega. I want a Sonic meets Silent Hill type game... it'd be like Gregory Horror Show, but with chaos emeralds and shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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