3D Sonic Ideas

[BlazeHedgehog]

Here are some ideas that have been rattling around in my head for months.

#1 - Tank Controls. I think for the speeds Sonic travels at, traditional 3D Platformer controls end up being too twitchy. Steering in a racing game, however, works great at high speeds - navigating a wide turn in a game like Gran Turismo or something is easy as pie because of how the cars handle. Sonic needs to handle like this, with weight and drift and all that fun stuff. Calling them "Tank Controls" sounds so nasty, though. If there was a way to bridge the gap between tank controls and 3d platformer controls that might be okay, but I think Sonic Heroes tried this and its controls are confusing garbage. It's hard to tell if a sharp turn on the analog stick will make Sonic do a wide turn or a sharp turn like you want him to do.

#2 - One way to fix the above problems is to divde Sonic's movement in to two modes; essentially, you give him a run button. Normally, Sonic runs at a brisk jog - nothing too unwieldly. A bit faster than Mario when he's in a full-out sprint, I guess. Holding the button allows Sonic to get up quite a bit more speed, and it also changes his controls from 3D platformer to racing game. Interestingly, I went back and played the original Spyro the Dragon (you know, the good one) and I was shocked to find it uses this exact control scheme, verbatim. I guess I subconsciously never forgot about it? It works really well in Spyro, too.

#3 - This idea clashes with #2, but one of the best "feeling" parts of Sonic Riders is the trick system. Essentially, as you get close to a ramp, you have to hold the jump button down and release it right at the tip of the ramp. Holding the button down gradually makes you slow down, though. The closer to the edge, the longer you hold the button, and the faster you are going are all factors in to how far and how high you jump. It also determines trick momentum; execute a perfect ramp and you can do a rapid-fire succession of tricks with the right analog stick. Execute it incorrectly, and you do tricks much slower. I want to bring this to a 3D Sonic platformer, but charging jumps seems kind of weird. But what if you could charge boost? Rather than a Sonic Rush style boost meter, what if it was more like Kirby's Air Ride? Holding the boost button down would gradually cause Sonic to slow, and depending on how long you had it held, releasing it would give you a super boost of speed. It would essentially be a mobile spindash without the rolling. In addition, you could use it as a quick direction-change mechanic; Charge up a boost, hold a different direction and release - you'd shoot off in whatever direction you were pointing with no momentum loss or stopping.

#4 - I like the idea of the homing attack; it makes attacking enemies in 3D much easier. What I don't like is the distance in which the homing attack functions. I think a might tighter radius on Sonic's homing attack is best; using a measure of "units", where one unit is the size of Sonic, I think a radius of 1 or 2 units is a good radius for homing attack. I don't like the homing attack being so much of a "gimmie", so having it so you get really close to an enemy might solve that. Risk and reward, and all of that.

#5 - The light dash is okay, and I wouldn't mind seeing that come back, but another way to solve the "collect rings in 3D" would simply to have Sonic be slightly magnetised. Not as much as the magnetic shield, of course, but just so that if he's in a close enough proximity to a ring (say, a half of a unit or a quarter of a unit), it automatically sucks towards him.

[Khorney]

i'm not sure what you mean with the race controls, but i'm thinking of how that would control on the tight 'strip-levels' we currently have, which dont really work with wide turns. however, i like the speed modifier button idea, making the game that bit more tactical, choosing whether to go all out and get the best time, or going a bit slower to make sure yo get there in one piece. i'm guessing, thinking in terms of controllers, this would probably be mapped to a triger button. The trick idea is good, giving a reason for using both analogue sticks

[BlazeHedgehog]

Illustrative help:

[Aerosol]

I'm glad someone thinks the same way I do. I'm especially liking the "run button" idea.

[Sockman]

I think the controls in Mark and Dami's 3D Sonic would work out pretty well if there was some sort of simulated friction.

For example, try doing a bit of a sprint yourself (I just tried down the hallway for the hell of it just now) and notice the mechanics of how you control yourself. You can't just turn 360 and start running the other direction without there being a loss of speed in that direction, you'd have to make a wider turn in order to change your direction without losing speed.

The best example I can think of is Epona's control in the Zelda games, while Epona was at a gallop, you couldn't just turn around and start running in the other direction.

[ssbfalcon]

Actually, I wonder how well #2 would work out. In game cutscenes and in the shows, Sonic always seems to save his fastest speeds for when it's really necessary (or he just wants to show off...)

[BlazeHedgehog]

Yeah, but I'm slowly becoming of the opinion that some games obsess a little too much over what "makes sense in the real world" and what "seems realistic/cinematic" rather than "what works as a videogame and is fun".

[ssbfalcon]

*cough*Forza*cough* Now don't get me wrong, the customization aspect is just awesome, and the visuals on the cars are great, but it's not the type of game that will keep me entertained...

Yeah, it's more impressive to make something as real as possible, but we're playing games to escape reality. Developers should throw reason to the curb and make whatever's fun to play...

/mini-rant

I think that the best idea would be to somehow playtest and try all these ideas, and different combinations of these, in order to get a perfect balance of everything... I think this will be best solved by trial and error...

[BlazeHedgehog]

Yeah, Forza is definitely "Trying to find the fun in the simulation", as I've heard it said. But some people like the hardcore sim stuff.

But this is Sonic. No sim stuff here!

[Streak Thunderstorm]

You know, I actually think they should give Sonic 3D a 2.5D makeover. Having played brawl as sonic... makes me think Ninty did a great job with that...

[Vexus]

I've always been thinking about what Sonic should really feel like in 3D. I was talking with a friend once and the major thing we agreed on is the interactivity factor. The more time the player spends playing, the better the experience.

However gimmicks in the 3D games don't fulfil this really, so I did some looking around. The loops in the 3D games were never taken seriously as a point of gameplay, but one group did add the extra interaction loops needed. Ashura Dark Reign not only put the basic interactivity back in the loop, but it's wideness allowed Sonic to move around and pick up rings. I'm pretty sure the new Blitz3D engine is capable of this too.

Another thing that can be worked on is the use of springs. Springs nowadays send you on a set course. While not a bad thing really long spring jumps are just eye candy. I've always wanted a scene where Sonic jumps on a spring and goes a really far distance, but while in the air Sonic can still move around in a small window so he could collect rings, items or dodge enemies... like Nights except it's not really flying I suppose. (but who cares, it's not like we're going for realism in these ideas)

I've been thinking of other things too, but unless I go off and make my own 3d engine I won't be able to express them properly. Oh well, the idea of a speed button is very interesting though. It was very useful in Spryo. On the point of tricks though, I think in a more traditional Sonic game tricks should be more related to how fast you hit a ramp or spring instead of slowing down charging a jump, mainly because it would be a better incentive to stay fast and keep a good flow going.

I think I'm done now XD

[Icecreamkid]

I've always been thinking about what Sonic should really feel like in 3D. I was talking with a friend once and the major thing we agreed on is the interactivity factor. The more time the player spends playing, the better the experience.

However gimmicks in the 3D games don't fulfil this really, so I did some looking around. The loops in the 3D games were never taken seriously as a point of gameplay, but one group did add the extra interaction loops needed. Ashura Dark Reign not only put the basic interactivity back in the loop, but it's wideness allowed Sonic to move around and pick up rings. I'm pretty sure the new Blitz3D engine is capable of this too.

Another thing that can be worked on is the use of springs. Springs nowadays send you on a set course. While not a bad thing really long spring jumps are just eye candy. I've always wanted a scene where Sonic jumps on a spring and goes a really far distance, but while in the air Sonic can still move around in a small window so he could collect rings, items or dodge enemies... like Nights except it's not really flying I suppose. (but who cares, it's not like we're going for realism in these ideas)

I've been thinking of other things too, but unless I go off and make my own 3d engine I won't be able to express them properly. Oh well, the idea of a speed button is very interesting though. It was very useful in Spryo. On the point of tricks though, I think in a more traditional Sonic game tricks should be more related to how fast you hit a ramp or spring instead of slowing down charging a jump, mainly because it would be a better incentive to stay fast and keep a good flow going.

I think I'm done now XD

Which Blitz3D engine do you have if you have it? Do you have the SDK version or the standard Blitz3D. Because I am using Blitz3D version 1.94 I think maybe 1.98. I want to make a 3D Sonic engine but most likely a basic engine, it depends on the development speed. But my question that I've always wondered about is that if people who make complex Sonic 3D engine animate the models themselves or do they somehow got a hold of the animations to animate the models.

But back on topic, I think a speed button is a great idea because like ssbfalcon said it doesn't seem like Sonic uses his real speed until he really needs it. So in a game the speed button would be best used in dramatic parts of a level, like for example a city is about to burst into flames and Sonic must escape.

[Damizean]

Which Blitz3D engine do you have if you have it? Do you have the SDK version or the standard Blitz3D. Because I am using Blitz3D version 1.94 I think maybe 1.98. I want to make a 3D Sonic engine but most likely a basic engine, it depends on the development speed.

Both. As for the Sonic engine, the basic stuff is quite easy to do, even though you need to be familiar with collision management and entity manipulation.

[Icecreamkid]

Both. As for the Sonic engine, the basic stuff is quite easy to do, even though you need to be familiar with collision management and entity manipulation.

I am quite familiar with collision management, since in the past I was working on a 3D Street Racing game, but with entity manipulation, I would have to read on that, because I kind of forget how to do it.

[DimensionWarped]

I'll agree with one point made here for sure... Sonic games are far too much in autopilot. Loops suck. Springs suck. 90% of the gimmicks suck. Interactivity is low.

Ideally, you would never take control away from the player except in the rarest of occasions. Thats how it worked in the old school. Riding a lifting gimmick? K, you can still move walk around and you can jump off when ever you feel like it. On a spring? Better be ready to adjust your position a little. Wouldn't want to run into the spike on the wall over there.

What I don't agree with is just having some interactivity stapled on to them. For instance, the idea that you shuffle left and right to grab rings... that doesn't really fix the problem, it just provides a distraction. It goes against the concept of keeping the mechanics fluid, which is something I think is sorely lacking in 3D Sonic games.

[DragonXVI]

Hmm, here's a thought (Re: the Camera), how about a first Person view?

Now granted, killing enemies is then out of the question, but you've seen racing games do it, and things like Loops would be spectacular from that sort of fast paced view.

To do a First Person View Sonic Game you'd probably have to make the levels a) Pretty linear, essentially long tracks ala Secret Rings and Enemy-less, but then turn it into what is essentially Sonic racing through various levels as fast as possible with the occasionally ridiculously long jump or sprint across water (And spikes) - Think of it as "Sonic's Training Session". Blaze is fairly close to the mark with the Rollcage/Trackmania suggestions.

It brings back the discussion a few of us had about the Serious Sam 2 Engine, which featured running up walls and spring pads. Speed it up a little bit and you'd be fairly close.

[BlazeHedgehog]

Being first person is kind of weird, though, I think. Most people would probably want to see Sonic from a third person camera angle of sorts.

(Also, hi Good job on Ragnarawk)

[ssbfalcon]

I wonder how long it is till we get a Wii balance board Sonic game... /Trombe_override

DW I think has a great point... Now that I go back and play SA, SA2, and SH, one of the main things I remember complaining about was that there's way too many "Rollercoaster" sections, especially when it comes to loops...

I know where they were coming at when they made the loops rollercoaster style, but all they really needed was a bit of an autonudge to help keep you on the loops a bit (and allow you to fall off of them if you're running too slow...)

The speed pads have been abused by Sonic Team in the recent games... (they did exist in the 2d games in one way or another, and were used very well (Chemical Plant))

Now, Crazy Gadget and Red Mountain... Those two stages feel closest to how Sonic should be played in 3d more than any other stages to me really...

Problem is, I haven't figured out exactly why yet...

[DimensionWarped]

In terms of actual action, I think SA2 has the best experience... at least in its Sonic stages. SA1 has a lot more levels that tend to take control away from the player... whether its in the form of non-interactive gimmicks (like the elevators and things in Final Egg) or long stretches of nothing. SA2 has a lot of the long stretches of nothing, but they really throw that out the window in the later stages. Crazy Gadget for instance has a massive volume of difficult platforming and the Final Rush/Final Chase stages have some really hardcore shit going for them with many avenues of completion.

In SA1 I have to give it up to Red Mountain for striking good balance in general. Very little time when they take control away from the player, and then, it's only for a little bit of *unique* eye candy... as opposed to bullshit loops and things.

[Blink]

Incredible thoughts guys, wish I had shown up here months ago.

The interactive segments really do make a Sonic game what it is. Personally, I'd love to see Sonic go the way of Metroid Prime and use all ingame graphics, all the time. It would keep the immersion up. They did it in SA1 and 2, but nothing really since.

The main problem now is that because of the diversion from the classic games, the Sonic series has begun to attract fans from other genres. This happened when Star Fox Adventures brought Zelda fans into the SF series, and it ruined the games for everyone else (somehow I always get caught up in these series's). For this reason, I don't think we'll ever see a Sonic game without cutscenes ever again, but, I do think we can have one where the player never loses control during a level (like the Prime series, cut scenes would be at the beginning and end of levels, and maybe when a boss was introduced or a puzzle solved... only, no puzzles in Sonic).

[BlazeHedgehog]

An idea I just had:

So you know the numbered jump pads in SA1? And how they were adapted to Sonic 2k6 without the numbers on them? Well, in Sonic 2k6 they were handled kind of awkwardly in the sense that you usually sprung off on to a wall and then had to jump from there, and you didn't know you had to do that until you had sat on the wall for a sec. The game gave no indication that it was coming.

What if points like that were homing attack points? This would obviously work best with Secret Rings style homing-attack crosshairs (infact, I think all 3D Sonic games need this going forward, and Sonic Unleashed seems to have it); you'd jump and there'd be a section of wall that would have the homing attack crosshair appear on it. You'd then homing attack on to the wall and jump from there.

That way you'd be able to identify that sequence as a player and utilize it better. As a level designer, maybe it would even help you incorporate sequences like that more to help the overall flow of the game.

[Aaron C-T]

The traditional control scheme could work if they made it less sensitive. As they increase Sonic's speed each game, they don't change the way he controls to adjust for the new speed. In SA/SA2 I think you could still simply tap the analog stick and be facing a different direction, they could've done with adjusting sensitivity to keep that from happening. The problem, for me, is that in Sonic Next things are often quite a bit faster, but the controls seem looser, when it should be the opposite. That's just with the analog of course. There are a ton of other inexcusable things going on with that game.

[Team Blackfox]

The Racing control scheme from the first post was used in the infamous (Cursed) Sonic R. It was also used in Sonic Robo Blast II

[BlazeHedgehog]

Thank you helpy helper-ton.

Eh, it wasn't really used that well in SRB2, if you ask me. Sonic had no drag or drift!

Sonic R was the polar opposite - whoever thought it was a good idea to make Sonic really difficult to steer (he had one of the lowest turning speeds in the game) was an idiot.

I'm talking about something better! Something that's been more finely tuned.

[Numbuh 214]

I understand where you're coming from, Blaze, but what I've noticed is while Mario is more about precision jumps while Sonic is more about high-octane running sections; this leads to my comparison, "A good Sonic game plays like a good Mario game on rollerskates." Had Sonic Team not strayed so much from that formula, the Mario vs. Sonic war may not have ended. Whether or not it is correct I do not know, but I will continue my fence-o-text later.