"Sonic Headway" Suggestion Box

[GamerGuy]

Alright, time to start brainstorming on the new project I'm code naming "Sonic Headway". If we can't come up with a better name, this will most likely be the actual title of the game.

Suggestions I'd like from you, are:

* Game Title

* Story

* Playable Characters

* Stages

* Emerald Stages

* Bosses

Before we get started, I just want to lay down the restrictions. We need to make this game pretty simple and small. This way it actually stands a chance of getting finished.

* No more than four playable characters. Though, I would really prefer it to be just Sonic. Perhaps Tails and Knuckles too, if we must.

* A pretty straight forward story. I don't want loads of cutscenes to do, just one or two between stages.

* Seven level limit. We're going to do the traditional emerald bonus stage, for each level. Since there's seven emeralds, we need only seven stages. And maybe a final level, that leads to the final boss.

Other than that, you're free to suggest whatever.

[Sparks]

When you say seven levels, do you mean just a long single level or a Zone with Acts?

Personally just have Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Eggman and possibly another character depending on what you think, since you seem to be going for a classic feel.

[GamerGuy]

A zone with acts, I suppose.

[VectorSatyr]

This is a tough call. I wouldn't be able to decide without throwing in my own bias. I'll try, though, because I really want to see this project get off the ground, and I AM your assistant:

• Each character should have unique qualities that are complimented by the level design. If your level isn't going to put much emphasis on their differences, what's the point of having those characters to begin with? Also, if a certain ability turns out to be too novel for integration, it shouldn't be integrate at all.
  
• Levels should follow both conventional and nonconventional styles, in order to draw the player in with familiarity but not bore him. This is probably the only time in life I'll ever refer to Sonic Cult. Take it with a grain of salt...
  
• Storyline determines the direction the game will go, the goal of the players, and the overall idea of the game's presentation before the player even picks up the controller. So once you've figured out the game style, the story will come naturally - whatever is good enough an excuse to place the characters into the situations you want, that's what you'll use. If this were an RPG, you'd put more thought into it... but it's not...
  
• Chaos emeralds are optional; if you feel you won't be able to add much to your storyline right now, then it's excusable to leave it out. Don't forget the impact this has on a Sonic game's replayability, though, especially if you can put all the elements into place properly. (emerald collection, transformation, and the finale) Also remember that there are more options for collection than the special stages from Sonic 2 and 3... be creative...
  
• Bosses should go with the style, but eminate their own sense of atmosphere themselves. Big, heavy bosses need to look, sound, and scream power to get the full effect. I've talked it over with DW, and we agree: you don't need to make bosses from scratch. Frankenspriting old boss pieces should give you whatever boss you need, and doesn't take much talent to patch up.
  

That's all for now. Take it away, DW...

[Asuma]

* Playable Characters

Sonic. Tails, Knuckles, Amy should be unlockables.=E

[DimensionWarped]

I'm going to have to state some extreme disagreement on the first point you make... about level design and how it relates to characters.

Quite frankly, the point of having characters with new abilities is for variety. Yes, this much is true. While a lot of variety in S3K comes from the new paths that different characters make available, this really isn't necessary to making other characters enjoyable and can make the way you emphasize your levels fall apart. Above all else, the way you plan your paths shouldn't become too dependent on what character you are using or you'll find your multipathing is nothing more than an illusion and instead you are just forcing characters in a certain way depending on who they are playing. Best thing is to use it sparingly and NOT to really consider which character you are using in the vast majority of your junctions. Instead make the paths accessible to everyone most of the time.

Whats the point of extra characters in that case? Well, the fact of the matter is that as long as you are designing a level with proficiency like that of Sonic 2, a lot of metagame will build itself up so that gliding and flying and things become useful in ways you had no deliberate intention of doing.

Above all, playtest the characters for any stretch of the level and see how their abilities come into play naturally. If you aren't seeing much to validate it in an area, THEN you add something specific to them. Otherwise, stick to designing like you normally would.

I'm going to try to avoid the topic of storyline for the most part, but I want to make a quick reversal here...

"Storyline determines the direction the game will go"

I firmly believe that the direction of the game should determine the story instead.

Now, on to the important stuff that I'm sure Aero is wanting me to discuss... the intricacies of level design. I'm mostly going to be covering a simple process and providing hints.

First getting a level started.

You have two options for where to start in the beginning.

-Pick a Theme (trivial)

-create a diagram detailing your route through a level (important)

Basically, when you are working on the route plan, you need to consider the following:

No level should be too linear

No path should be trivial

Junctions should neither be too far nor too close from one another

Some paths should carry the risk of terminating if the player missteps and then forcing the player to resume on another path

Here is my favorite example of a path map.

(click the spoiler button to see)

Immediately, if you have the talent for level design, you should see the beauty in that. It weaves in and out of itself and overlaps in ways that can only be considered mesmerizing.

Anyway, once you've decided upon and refined your path, we can move on to the next set of steps.

section 2: blocking it out

As I stated earlier, no path should be trivial. Every path should set the player with one or more specific obstacles to get around. Paths should have specific risks and benefits.

What you should do for this phase is this:

For each segment:

1. Choose the segment

2. Plan an obstacle

3. Plan a method of transcending that obstacle

4. Repeat

For each junction:

1. Pick a Junction

2. Select a path leading from the node

3. Devise a method of reaching that path.

4. Do this for every exit branch

5. go through steps 1-4 with every Junction

When you are plotting segments of a path that split from a junction, make sure to make the alternative have differences in obstacles, risks, rewards.

You generally have a few different reasons to actually make an effort to change paths.

1. A particular path is faster

2. A particular path is easier

In some cases, like the secret path I outlined in CPZ2, the path is both faster AND easier. But this isn't a normal case.

Anyway, there are other reasons not to bother with the paths.

1. The risk isn't worth the reward (some paths are dangerous)

2. Maintaining your path isn't easy. (example - falling from the top parts in Aquatic Ruin)

Anyway, that should provide you a good vehicle for rudimentary level design.

iledit: put image in spoiler tags so it doesn't stretch the tables by default.

[VectorSatyr]

Way to stretch the thread with that huge-ass diagram. xD

While a lot of variety in S3K comes from the new paths that different characters make available, this really isn't necessary to making other characters enjoyable and can make the way you emphasize your levels fall apart. Above all else, the way you plan your paths shouldn't become too dependent on what character you are using or you'll find your multipathing is nothing more than an illusion and instead you are just forcing characters in a certain way depending on who they are playing.

Compliment and dependancy are two different things, DW. I wasn't really saying that much of the design should be dedicated to character abillities. Some light consideration would be enough, but some levels I've seen in official Sonic games don't even go that far, so I felt that it needed reiteration.

Whats the point of extra characters in that case? Well, the fact of the matter is that as long as you are designing a level with proficiency like that of Sonic 2, a lot of metagame will build itself up so that gliding and flying and things become useful in ways you had no deliberate intention of doing.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the idea of leaving abillties solely up to improvisation as the only reason for using them.

I firmly believe that the direction of the game should determine the story instead.

For some people, a direction is more vague and harder to determine than a storyline. I'm one of those people right now.

[Asuma]

Leave it to DW.

[Khorney]

lol, baorrrd strutch.

anyway, for bosses, i would like too see some megaman style stage/boss theme interaction, since this hasn't been done very much in sonic games. a few examples that come to mind are the two bosses(mini and final) from sandopolis and hydrocity and the miniboss from angel island, and the final from marble garden. i say megaman, since that has some pretty clear similarities in themes, in particular i'm thinking MMX4/5/6 (as those are the ones i've played most recently), but thats random rant shit....

also for bosses you should definately have one where you have to use the environment to defeat it, the mini boss from carnival night, the zone 6 boss from sonic advance are good examples of this (the second one to a lesser extent), and if your including knuckles putting walls in to some of the boss areas will vary his play style a bit more.

[sonicblast32]

lol, baorrrd strutch.

anyway, for bosses, i would like too see some megaman style stage/boss theme interaction, since this hasn't been done very much in sonic games. a few examples that come to mind are the two bosses(mini and final) from sandopolis and hydrocity and the miniboss from angel island, and the final from marble garden. i say megaman, since that has some pretty clear similarities in themes, in particular i'm thinking MMX4/5/6 (as those are the ones i've played most recently), but thats random rant shit....

also for bosses you should definately have one where you have to use the environment to defeat it, the mini boss from carnival night, the zone 6 boss from sonic advance are good examples of this (the second one to a lesser extent), and if your including knuckles putting walls in to some of the boss areas will vary his play style a bit more.

Yeah I agree, but make the bosses original, I would like to see some custum ones if posssible. good luck with your game.

[DimensionWarped]

Aero, what I'm saying is that it isn't really important to have characters use their abilities to split the paths. If you are making the level in the right manner, new paths will open up for the other characters whether you are doing it deliberately or not. Its very rare that you actually see the path being forcefully split. Usually you'll see this no more than once per zone and most of the time it relies more on events taking place than on the players actual ability differences.

[VectorSatyr]

Aero, what I'm saying is that it isn't really important to have characters use their abilities to split the paths. If you are making the level in the right manner, new paths will open up for the other characters whether you are doing it deliberately or not.

DW, that was almost exactly what I was saying (that it's not important). Again, compliment and dependancy are two different things. The character abillities don't need to have a dramatic effect on the level scheme - the level simply has to remember who you're playing as.

[DimensionWarped]

Each character should have unique qualities that are complimented by the level design. If your level isn't going to put much emphasis on their differences, what's the point of having those characters to begin with?

.

[VectorSatyr]

Alright, let me put it in another way: Each character should have unique abillities that compliment the level design. (Characters -> Level design, instead of Characters <- Level Design)

You got your point across, no more arguing.

[GamerGuy]

Good advice, guys.

Now, how about some ideas for this game. Like what kind of level should the first zone be, what could it have, etc.?

[sonicblast32]

I think it should be like sonic games always do, a nature zone.

[DimensionWarped]

Good advice, guys.

Now, how about some ideas for this game. Like what kind of level should the first zone be, what could it have, etc.?

If you want to AIM me some time, I can brainstorm with you on this, but to me, a forum isn't the best medium for actually coming up with ideas like this.

[Blue Frenzy]

I think it should be like sonic games always do, a nature zone.

Like road 99?

Just keep in mind that you have to introduce the game, so maybe a dark and complex level won't fit well. Try something happy. What about if you want to make a sunshine sea level? First step for the story. Sonic Go on airplane like in sonic 3 did to the place where events will happen, but this time something hits the plane and it crashes on some rocks a few hundreds of meters in the sea. First zone:

Sunshine Aquarium

Bright sun, bright lightblue rocks and a few islands on background. Coral reefs and a sand underwater path.

[sonicblast32]

Like road 99?

Just keep in mind that you have to introduce the game, so maybe a dark and complex level won't fit well. Try something happy. What about if you want to make a sunshine sea level? First step for the story. Sonic Go on airplane like in sonic 3 did to the place where events will happen, but this time something hits the plane and it crashes on some rocks a few hundreds of meters in the sea. First zone:

Sunshine Aquarium

Bright sun, bright lightblue rocks and a few islands on background. Coral reefs and a sand underwater path.

Agree.

[Harryboy]

Here's something...

Name: Sonic : the Search of a Sister, Sonic & Saphins, Sonic in wonderland?*shot*

Chars: Sonic,Tails,Knuckles, and....ummmm Shadow*shot* not really, I'd like Amy, it gives a challenge to some people who play Sonic Adventure/Sonic Advance 1.

Now, the story(hope it's not a bore-fest) : Sonic has recived a letter from his long-lost sister ,Saphins! Saphins invited Sonic to her little show, little did Sonic know what she does. After a long walk(or country-run...) he runs right by Tails' house, and he'd mention about his long-lost sister, and Sonic didn't see Knuckles or Amy there...'till he told the story, then Amy,Knuckles, and Tails all want to join Sonic in his quest to find his long-lost sister!

Levels:Palmtree Paradise (You,of course, can add 'Zone' at the end, if you want to!), Ocean City, Casino Field, Route 365,Chemical Factory ,Sky High ,Egg Towers.

Bosses: Sonic 1/2-styled eggman bosses...

Emerald Stages: Sonic 3D Blast (Saturn) Styled -- or Sonic 2-styled... maybe Sonic 1? Take your pick...

[VectorSatyr]

AHHHH, BLAZEFIRE!!! KILL IT! KILL IT! [/jk]

[Sparks]

Here's something...

Name: Sonic : the Search of a Sister, Sonic & Saphins, Sonic in wonderland?*shot*

Chars: Sonic,Tails,Knuckles, and....ummmm Shadow*shot* not really, I'd like Amy, it gives a challenge to some people who play Sonic Adventure/Sonic Advance 1.

Now, the story(hope it's not a bore-fest) : Sonic has recived a letter from his long-lost sister ,Saphins! Saphins invited Sonic to her little show, little did Sonic know what she does. After a long walk(or country-run...) he runs right by Tails' house, and he'd mention about his long-lost sister, and Sonic didn't see Knuckles or Amy there...'till he told the story, then Amy,Knuckles, and Tails all want to join Sonic in his quest to find his long-lost sister!

Levels:Palmtree Paradise (You,of course, can add 'Zone' at the end, if you want to!), Ocean City, Casino Field, Route 365,Chemical Factory ,Sky High ,Egg Towers.

Bosses: Sonic 1/2-styled eggman bosses...

Emerald Stages: Sonic 3D Blast (Saturn) Styled -- or Sonic 2-styled... maybe Sonic 1? Take your pick...

The level names are pretty lame. Chemical Factory was just the beta name for Chemical Plant, and Sky High is already a Sonic stage. (Sonic 2 Game Gear Version, the Hill Top lookalike). And fan characters with official ones isn't a very pretty sight in most cases.

Sonic in wonderland?

Chesire(sp?) Eggman plz.

[Harryboy]

AHHHH, BLAZEFIRE!!! KILL IT! KILL IT! [/jk]

I guess I deserved that... anyways, I knew some of those were official names,but those were just suggestions...anyways, GeeGee, I give you good luck on your [Nameless [for right now] Sonic] game (Hope you can stick with this one...)!

[sonicblast32]

Just one question: wich style is it in? Advance or genesis?

[Khorney]

advance, as most of the assets we have are already in advance, and some extra purtiness for the character sprites