360 degrees, essential?

[Syonic]

hi guys , just wondering as recently im kinda still new to MMF2

I've just figured out slopes now, but the lazy way..just to give me an idea of how it functions.

though my question is, Is a 360 degrees engine Essential to make a good sonic game?

cheers

[Blue Frenzy]

No.

Sonic games uses 360 engines, but that doesnt mean you have to use it to make a fun game. Just play arround with what you have.

[Syonic]

ok thx, while its my first game i'll stick to what I have, until I get used to using the 360 engines

cheers m8

[SonicProject]

If you want to make an accurate Sonic game without forcing bugged movements in TGF/MMF to work, sure. Haven't tried MMF2 so I have no idiea whether or not they've fixed the problems.

But do what you want to do. You're going to anyway!

[MidimanNull]

I suggest using static if your new to the fangaming scene, as its MUCH easier to make an engine with; but if you can handle the demand of expansion for 360 engines, by all means use the engine ( just be sure your making enough objects to make the engine somewhat "original" )

[Damizean]

Everything that can be made with statis, can be easily implemented in 360º too. You just have a new factor: angle. Everything is the same (speed, gravity, etc).

[DimensionWarped]

I'd say... yes. The 360 engine IS necessary to make a good Sonic game. Without having proper interaction with the slopes, all you have is Sonic in a generic platform game.

You can make a great game without a 360 engine, but you can't make a Sonic game.

[Syonic]

hmm, well , is it possible to have just one sprite eg, Sonic, to make the 360 engine or do you HAVE to use 2 seperate sprites?

[Damizean]

If you were using MMF2, it would be possible to use only one sprite, since in the MMF 1.5 version the two sprites are needed due rotation (MMF2 has rotation implemented, so only a mirrored version would be needed inside the same sprite)

[Slingerland]

welcum to teh phangaymeng wurld!

Do what you want. Whatever you're comfortable with.

[SonicProject]

You can make a great game without a 360 engine, but you can't make a Sonic game.

Depends on what you believe to be a Sonic game. Sonic Team seems to be convinced that their hero does just fine without loops. Loops that the player can control anyway. In my opinion, Sonic is just an average platformer with racing elements applied. The loops don't make the game. They just improve the experience if they are pulled off correctly.

[Slingerland]

Here we go with the loop bullsh*t. Gawd.

Sonic Team seems to be convinced that their hero does just fine without loops. Loops that the player can control anyway.

Wrong.

No more talk of this loop crap, before somebody who's all defensive about it shows up and de-rails the thread with caps and ____s.

[DimensionWarped]

I wasn't even talking about loops. My bigger bag is the whole way Sonic interacts with slopes in general. Loops are just a small part of that interaction...

[Asuma]

IMO, 360 is the new static.

[MidimanNull]

IMO, 360 is the new static.

And this is why there are so many "missing" fangames now a days

I sware to god Jamie Bailey is probably pissed at all of you for abandoning his staticness.

[DimensionWarped]

Well, its all fine and good to act with this goody two-shoes "all engines are created equal" bull____ mentality, but really... are we trying to kid ourselves here? Sonic just isn't Sonic when you can't roll down a hill.

[MidimanNull]

That can be completely implemented into a static engine, just not with loops

[Kain]

Well slopes of degree (-75,75) are fairly easy to implement without creating a full-blown 360 engine. Personally, I see nothing wrong with limiting your game to those angle slopes. But a flat Sonic does seem a bit dull.

[Gamerdude]

My suggestion is to start with regular static, then work on 360. 360 can be a huge pain to understand if you don't have a good grasp on how static works. When you fail to understand how the engine works, it's harder to implement features and moves that you want. Take small bites, don't just jump into the big stuff, it'll only result in a headache.

[Kain]

Go from first gear to third gear, you say? Meh, not too unusual, but I still suggest geting some trig and slope experience before moving to 360. That is, if you are to understand the concepts and not merely copy them (not that that's a bad thing, but you might as well use another engine, then). Unless you're already quite good at trig.

Sorry, I know that's not what you meant at all; just adding. Anyway, don't aim to make a complete (in terms of soundness, etc) and authentic game your first shot. Just have fun making them.

[Damizean]

Then again, my thoughs about all this is that you don't really need to understand 360º to fully use it. Do any of you understand the lower layers of your OS that are before the MMF program? Probably not, but you still use them. You just need to manipulate the values, understand what they do and not completely change the engine. Almost everything can be done that way, as the logic behind it keeps the same (Basic actions + Gimmiks + Everything).

[SonicProject]

Here we go with the loop bullsh*t.

This loop bull____ is relevant to the topic. In fact, it's the very fabric of the question itself. If you would not like loops to be discussed, why allow this topic to remain open in the first place? What is the point of a 360 degree engine when you remove the loops, Slingerland? And you're condemning its mention in the very topic that is requesting opinions on the matter? With all due respect, I decline to end this discussion about loops in Sonic games as it is important in answering Syonic's question.

You're far too concerned that an argument will start. Calm down. You should be able to put faith in the fact that others are capable of handling a discussion maturely. No need to hold their hands.

Also, you say I'm "wrong"? Unfortunately, I'm not referring to the 2D Sonic the Hedgehog games.

Well, its all fine and good to act with this goody two-shoes "all engines are created equal" bull____ mentality, but really... are we trying to kid ourselves here? Sonic just isn't Sonic when you can't roll down a hill.

All of the 3D games lack the inclusion of slopes to roll down. In fact, Sonic Team has done away with the standard roll altogether, in the 3D games. Without stirring up a discussion about 3D vs. 2D, allow me to say that Sonic Team certainly doesn't deem it to be an important element in a Sonic game. Their work in the 3D games proves that.

What makes a Sonic game a Sonic game boils down to nothing further than an opinion. One that fans have been arguing about for years. The important thing to remember, Syonic, is that you are not being paid to make the game. You should be making the game in whatever you are comfortable in. You can't satisfy everyone. Take for example a situation where, let's say, you put a lot of effort and time into your 360 degree engine. You and others might notice that other areas in your game are lacking such as level design. Some players aren't happy with it despite the genuine experience you have provided.

I'm certainly concerned that a game should be well-rounded and that you should accept criticism from your players but look at it realistically, you are one person. You aren't going to be good at everything and you should not turn the game into a chore for yourself. After all, despite whatever efforts you put into the game not everyone is going to be satisfied and you're not making a cent from making it.

Yes, I'm repeating myself. But I feel that it is an important point that has to be made. These are fan games. They're not official. While there is nothing wrong with aspiring to make a game that plays exactly like the real thing, it should not be required. All engines are not created equal, you are certainly correct about that DimensionWarped. But neither are the people making them.

[DimensionWarped]

Allow me to reiterate. The 3D Sonic games are NOT Sonic games. They are just platform games ranging from mediocre to good with Sonic in them and some Sonic elements.

Allow me to reiterate further... there IS no Sonic Team and the random people who are developing the game now are completely clueless as to what made Sonic games what they were in the first place.

Allow me to pose a counter point... there is some slope interaction in the 3D games. Its just much harder to notice. The acceleration while going downhill in SA2 at a steep incline ala City Escape is a good bit higher than when just on normal flat surfaces. This is less noticable than 2D because its not done in such a high degree that you can't quite control yourself going down hill like you would in Sonic 3 for instance. Also, this applies to jumping too and you can prove this by the simple fact that jumping from a spindash and an incline will send you to frighteningly high elevations.

The two games with the absolute least slope interaction though that I have actually played would be Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog.

Now, as I have said many times before... I have no problem with platform games that aren't Sonic. I liked SA and SA2 and even Shadow to an extent. However, I feel that if we are trying to make a Sonic fangame and not a Sonic Adventure fangame or even just a generic platform game with Sonic in it, then we should look to the Genesis games for what to imitate... not the 3D series. And that goes for the couple of us who work in 3D as well as in 2D.

[SonicProject]

I still don't understand what gives you the notion that you are to decide what a Sonic game is and is not. I'm copping out of this now for it is pointless and you've clearly made up your mind.

At any rate, static is just as capable of creating loops. Sonic Time Attacked for example. So you could really go with either. 360 engines just require a lot more mathematics.

[DimensionWarped]

Research is why I've decided. Pure and simple research. It also goes along the rather simple reasoning that I know the Genesis Sonic games are Sonic games and I know that the 3D Sonic games aren't much like the Genesis Sonic games. Call it backwards reasoning if you want... but there isn't much doubt in my mind that Sonic Riders and Sonic Spinball aren't Sonic games.

But really, 360 engines don't require squat for mathematics. It just requires looking at the engine's documentation to figure it out. Hardly something challenging. I guess you might say its a little harder to make gimmicks for it at first than with a regular engine, but that also changes over time.

And more to the point, I don't think I've ever seen a Sonic fangame with decent gimmick variety that doesn't use 360, and if you don't have gimmicks, you know you don't have a Sonic game.