Sonic the Hedgehog - The unlockables

[DimensionWarped]

Oh really? And what kind of "classical" Sonic levels/games, have you been playing, might I ask? I'll tell you right now, that is a fact that Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, and Shadow the Hedgehog lack these "classical Sonicish level" designs you falsely believe SH had. Again, fact not opinion. The classic Sonic games- that is Sonic 1 - Sonic & Knuckles - all had ladders, corkscrews, multiple shields, loops, monkey bars, tilting/crumbling platforms, underwater segments, and special stages. I believe you're confusing this with Sonic Adventure.

Haven't we been through this before Scatta?

Ladders weren't in any Sonic game until Sonic Adventure. Monkey bars were only in Sonic and Knuckles and Sonic Adventure. Multiple shields were only in Sonic and Knuckles, but were also in every Sonic game except Heroes, with a total of 3 different shields in Shadow. Every Sonic game including Heroes and everything else has loops. Sonic and Knuckles didn't have a single underwater segment. Sonic Heroes had special stages... and Sonic Adventure didn't.

Still, Sonic Heroes doesn't have oldschool level design at all. Its far too linear and relies too much recycling on the one thing that REALLY makes a Sonic game... gimmicks.

Gimmicks, not monkey bars, make for the classic style.

[Aaron C-T]

But monkey bars, ladders, loops, corkscrews, shields, crumbling, tilting, antigravity, underwater segments and the like are gimmicks. Although, I was completely wrong in saying that all of the old Sonic games contained each of those things.

Ugh.. 'tis true. Pretty much the only reason I can't stand Heroes really. By the time I got to Hang Castle I was basically doing the exact same things over and over and over again. Hit switch, ohnose enemies!, switch to Knuckles, knock over enemy, switch to Sonic, kill, progress. I think the game could've used some Lost World/Sky Deck-esque design or something. I'd of loved it if it didn't punch me, stab me, kill me and then wash, rinse and repeat. ;-;

[DimensionWarped]

No, all it needed was more variety of gimmicks. All any Sonic game needs to make it a good game is gimmicks. Gimmicks are the core of a Sonic game, more so even than loops and physics. How few of them there were is why gamegear Sonic games sucked compared to the Genesis games. How little they vary is why the Sonic Advance games suck compared to the Genesis games.

I set forth the proposal that the gimmick is the soul of Sonic the Hedgehog.

Oh, and just to set things apart... gimmicks are strictly ways to traverse the terrain. In other words, not shields, not special stages, not really crumbling platforms (thats just plain an obstacle), not techniques, not even level design.

[Aerosol]

though a return of the fireball shield would be nice.

[DimensionWarped]

Shadow the Hedgehog had a fire/heat shield. Granted, it didn't launch him forward as a fireball, the homing attack already does that.

[Aerosol]

that's true. The fireball shield should just power up the homing attack then. That'd be pretty rad. I think.

Even so, Super Sonic in all levels would probably be a bit dumb in Next Gen. My reasoning is that it already looks to be pretty fast paced. Unless that speed is controlled in an awesome fashion, it'll just be like "wow. more speed. where I don't actually need it. estupendo"

[DimensionWarped]

You need it like crazy before you get a large pool of rings... which... you can't change into Super Sonic before you have.

Regardless, invincibility is awesome.

And I can see Super Sonic being really useful for time trials. That was something I was wanting to do in DW anyway... along with having a bunch of equipment that you could choose from to alter various things such as shields, super forms, etc.

[Aaron C-T]

"that's true. The fireball shield should just power up the homing attack then. That'd be pretty rad. I think."

Psh.. I think it'd be cool if you the fireshield put a flame over you when you did a homing attack. And if you hit an enemy in the middle of a group of enemies, an explosion knocked nearby enemies to the floor. ::shrug::

As much as I can't wait for Sonic Next, because it will be a fun game, I think level design-sise we're moving in the totally wrong direction. If I'm playing a Sonic game I expect Sonic-y level design. Unlike say.. Sef, I'm fine with these apocalyptic-esque levels.. it's just that I believe they should be mixed in with some more.. I dunno.. "exotic" places. How about allowing a few of the paths to go through buildings? I dunno.. I just think more could be done. For instance, it'd be cool if Wave Ocean had some underwater segments possibly as alternate paths. It'd also be awesome to play as Knuckles, Tails, and Rouge (assuming this can actually be done) because all of those characters can swim.

[Serephim]

I STILL dont get it when people complain about the Physics in Sonic Heroes. Sure, you can go flailing around the place on occacions, but ive RARELY been killed by Homing Attack/collision problems/physics issues on SH. The Homing attack on Heroes rarely got me killed.

Maybe i diddnt mean "Classical Sonic Feel". Maybe i just ment "Fun Factor".

Sonic Adventure was a great game, but after playing Heroes on my computer, going back to playing SADX is just....boring. The camera sucks ASS, the collision problems are everywhere, while running (last part of Windy Valley for example) running into the edges of the walls completely kills my momentum, the homing attack isnt as awsome, and i can beat the levels in under 3 miniutes. The level design was great, but its age and inferior engine just doesnt compare to Heroes imo.

I just think Heroes diddnt get half the credit it was due for. MOST camera problems were abolished (if you keep it on auto, the camera is actully pretty goddammed awsome), It was alot faster than SA2, it looked WAY better than both SA and SA2, and i really diddnt run into any collision problems. The difficulty was pretty nice, and when sonic reaches level 3 you can have more fun trying to find ways to beat the stage without your team members.

Sure, the game is extremely repetitive, but maybe im liking it on PC more than on GCN because:

1) i can skip Team Rose and Team Chaotix through save file replacement, and

2) That save file allows me to play Super Hard Mode, which is actully (imo) 5x better than the orginal level playthough.

I just think the reason everyone hated heroes is because you were forced to play as Team rose and Team Chaotix, and i doubt ANYONE wanted to. Most people play as Team Sonic first, and playing as any other team afterwards is just boring.

But on the subject of Nex-Gen, I really dont know what it is about the levels im not really liking. The game seems to look JUST like Sonic Adventure with more realistic levels and a few Cinematic speed parts.

The speed parts in the game seem to look like nothing but a cinematic aspect of the game to me. Im not really liking them that much. If they added a few loops/ slopes/ more manuvering than simplely tree dodging, then they would look more fun. But right now they just look like a quick way to skip over the level. (no different than Chaos Control in Shadow with horizontal movement.)

---sidenote

And i think i just figured out why i like SA2/SH more than all the other games. All the levels in those two games just offered more than they seem to in Sonic the Hedgehog. Even inside of Realistic Environments, the levels in sonic games should stray away from simple flat ground, because its really boring to be able to have all this speed and only be able to have fun with it when you hit a loop or get the chance to wall run. (And thats most likely why i enjoyed Sonic Heroes more than most of the other games.)

Sonic the Hedgehog just looks too...Realistic. Even with springs, air rings, loops, and running faster than robotnick's ship can fly, the stage still looks boring. Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, and Sonic Heroes had that aspect to it, SA2 and SH having it a bit more.

[Aaron C-T]

Yea.. 'cept SADX sucked in comparison to SA. It had problems that weren't even in the first game. Like random slowdowns and spurts. I prefer playing my DC version, because when playing SADX it was just.. inferior except for graphics (which don't look awesome when the framerate starts screwing up).

"running into the edges of the walls completely kills my momentum,"

Err.. until I see you run head-on into the edge of a wall and keep your momentum up (not to mention balance) I don't think this is even a valid argument. Running into walls kind of tends to do that, kinda like how if you jump into a pool you should expect to get wet. Although there's always that one kid who gets PO'd because you splashed him. As far as camera problems and the like.. well the game is old. Of course stuff has been improved.. I don't see how that means anything. That's like me saying "wow.. this computer is faster than the computer I had in '98." It's kind of an "ah-dur" statement.

"Sonic the Hedgehog just looks too...Realistic. Even with springs, air rings, loops, and running faster than robotnick's ship can fly, the stage still looks boring."

How does realism have anything to do with whether or not gameplay is boring? That's incredibly odd to think. Especially after you JUST were talking about how awesome Heroes' graphics were. I'd LOVE to see Green Hill Zone in the Sonic Next engine. It's not so much that it's too realistic, imo, it's that they're missing some cool gimmicks as DW said and that they need to vary up the level with some sort of like.. SA-esque puzzles. If they took say.. Aquatic Ruins and redid it like they did Mushroom.. Valley or whatever Frog Forest was based off of complete with underwater segments and the like with graphics as beautiful as these I think it'd be awesome. It's just.. I dunno.. I'm fine with apocalyptic (sp?) levels just so long as there are Sonic-esque levels to back them up. Hell, even if they were unlockables I'd be fine.

[Serephim]

Just because heroes looked good doesnt mean it looked Realistic. (Wind Waker?)

When i mean running into walls i actully mean touching the walls. (skimming the walls on SA made you lose speed.)

When i mean realistic, i was really talking about the levels themselves. Wave Ocean was just too flat to feel like sonic. That level, Speeders, Springs, and loops aside, looks like a level that almost ANY platforming game could handle. It looks like i could take the Jak and Daxter or Kingdom Hearts engine and stick it over that sonic level, and it would be perfect aside from the wall running/loop segments...Which means the stage isnt "sonic" enough to me. Get it?

[Aaron C-T]

"When i mean running into walls i actully mean touching the walls. (skimming the walls on SA made you lose speed.)"

I don't recall this. Then again, I always managed not to skim my character across a wall. Not exactly sure why you'd want to do that.

"and it would be perfect aside from the wall running/loop segments...Which means the stage isnt "sonic" enough to me. Get it?"

Well now I do. However, realistic != to what you said. I thought you meant realistic as in gfx-wise because you said "looks". In that case I completely agree. It's not "Sonic" enough.

[Guest Shadix]

Sonic Cult released the script, (which I don't think is a fraud. Making a fake bloated Torrent was one thing, but I doubt Saz or anyone for that matter would have the patience to fake an ENTIRE script in multiple languages...) so for those of you who feel like spoiling the game for yourselves, go read the news article.

[Aaron C-T]

Let me take this time to remind anyone that we now have a spoiler button, and we expect you all to put it to use as it does have a purpose. Ironically I have no idea where the button is and as such would not be able to post one even if I planned on spoiling the game for myself.

Shadix: Only thing I want to know, assuming you read through it yourself, is whether or not the story was good. No examples, descriptions or anything. Just a simple "yes" or "no" will do. Then I'll try and stay the heck out of here for fear of the game being ruined for me. Like last time.

[Aki-at]

Hmmm well my friend finds it a step up from Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Heroes, but its still no way as good as the previous. And he finds some of the lines silly, but that could be down to no directions of what the characters are doing. But heck they could have come up with more original terms XD oh and the secret secret final ending is not in the script.

Oh BTW since this is a Sonic topic, The first cutscenes (pretty bad though)

One of them features Sonic boarding in Crisis City

Take them how you well.

[DimensionWarped]

Wow, those screens show me that they really did make Sonic a lot taller. I mean, they must have changed him from being pretty much exactly 1 meter to being about 1.5 meters tall. It doesn't look the same at all.

[Aaron C-T]

Is it just me or are the screens of the opening scenes not very.. I dunno.. pretty. Are they real-time? If so that might be the problem. CG now plz. xD

Edit: And is it just me or is Elise too pale? There's artistic inconsistency (is that even a term) here. Robotnik's got textured skin, yet Elise doesn't. And things like Robotnik and his chip almost completely clash. The texture work on Robotnik is like "BAM aren't I hot" and the ships like "... brah! I'm plain man!" ..assuming that made some sort of sense.

[DimensionWarped]

Yes, they are real time. You are a modeler now, you should be able to see this!

Ah, you'll learn.

[Aaron C-T]

Yea, I know. xD

But still why does it looks so damned bad? There's no excuse for this sort of crap. This is a next-gen system. ;-;

Edit: Also.. did they change the Emerald size/shape again or were those the Sol Emeralds? I don't believe the answer would be a spoiler in itself.

[DimensionWarped]

Because Sonic is an awkward character and the Japanese always seem to be behind on creating hight quality graphics as far as technology is concerned.

Clearly if they weren't, we'd be seeing more high end shader effects coming out games that were made in Japan.

[Aaron C-T]

Err.. sarcasm much? xD

[DimensionWarped]

No, I'm actually quite serious on this one. Western games tend to push the envelope of technology much more than Japanese games tend to.

[Aki-at]

Is that what I think it is between Sonic's legs?

[duckythemutant]

It's a penis

[Aki-at]

[18:19] Akifromspace: OMG OMG

[18:19] Akifromspace: I got it

[18:19] Akifromspace: Sonic's tail is his penis

[18:20] Rael0505: BRILLIANT

This pretty much confirms what I've known all along...