ProSonic Engine - **Outline**!

[saxman]

UPDATE - Links are working again!

I had wanted to get this posted on the main SFGHQ news page, but I'm thinking my e-mail didn't go through (it's not the first time).

The outline is available for those who haven't been keeping up with my blog. The outline explains the engine in more detail, clarifies some past confusion, and lays out exactly what benefits it will offer to each type of fan gamer.

I have both DOC and PDF versions of it available. I recommend the DOC version since it's the higher quality version of the two, although there's always the PDF in case you don't like DOC files or don't have any way to view them.

http://dgrove.blogspot.com/ -- look for the Sept 14 and 15 posts.

[USC]

...You know, you could just post the link here for everyone to see.

http://www.comprosoftware.com/saxman/outline.doc

Anyways, it sounds very interesting. I can't wait to see how you're going to market this enough to get half of all fan gamers to use it by 2008, though.

As for speed issues...do you plan on offering different "modes" for game making, so to speak? For example, if you want your game to run on older computers, some "guiding" limits would be set in place to make sure you don't over-do it with special effects or whatever?

[DimensionWarped]

Honestly, that document seemed kinda fluffy to me. I mean, anyone you are seriously trying to interest in this probably already knows the advantages and disadvantages concerned with making a fangame, with trying to learn how to program, rom hacking (as if thats really an alternative...), etc.

Still, I'll continue to remain interested in the project. Afterall, its a very interesting project.

[saxman]

USC:

I don't think I'll put any modes into it. The engine has some internal limits already set, most of which way more than anyone would ever need. For example -- a level can have up to 1023 objects total... who would need that many? The most I found in any Sonic 2 level was around 600, and that was a good bit higher than the number of objects found in other levels.

I would make recommendations and tips though. This would help keep frame-rate fast and games running more efficiently. For example, although you can have up to 128 objects in the view at a single given time, I would recommend editing out some objects if the object count ever exceeds 60 when testing your levels. This would be written in documentation with the engine, and it might be included in a kind of "Tip" dialog box that comes up in the level editor or something.

And it'll be a challenge to get 50% to use it by 2008. Originally I wanted by the end of 2007, but I felt that wasn't realistic enough. So sometime in 2008 is what I'm looking for. I honestly believe I can pull it off too. Once it's clear to people that everything they want will be right there in front of them and then some, I think a lot of them will be quick to jump on board. I'm already working with one person to develop a fan-game to be launched with my engine, and another who wanted to develop a couple playable levels of his own with the engine to also be launched with the engine.

DW:

It's fluffy to you, and it's a great thing to others. I've gotten a lot more feedback on this document than I ever got posting screen shots and talking about it before. People from many other forums, some I don't go to, have been talking about this. And according to some people, it actually has cleared up confusion and made them better understand what the advantages are. The outline has served it's purpose very successfully.

Below is a double post that has been automagically merged into the original.

Okay wow, now ComproSoftware's host is down, which means the outline can't be downloaded at this time >_< One thing gets fixed, then something else goes wrong.

Well if you haven't read it yet, keep trying back. Compro tells me the host usually gets problems like this fixed very quickly, so hopefully it'll be back up shortly.

[Andrew]

Instead of telling people to look for posts, why not post a direct link to the posts? It helps and it doesn't make me think it's a subtle plug.

[saxman]

I did on other forums, but that was before I added the PDF version. So instead of trying to find the two links, I just link to the blog now to make it easier. But who in the world really cares how I link to it? I linked where it is found, that's all that matters. If you don't want to go to my blog to get it, use USC's link to get the DOC version.

But you can't download it yet anyway because the host is still having problems apparently >_< I hope it gets resolved soon.

[DimensionWarped]

SECTION 1: What is Pro Sonic?

Imagine you say to yourself one day “I want to make a Sonic the Hedgehog game”. So you begin searching around on the internet to find out about ways to do this. You find out about programs such as Multimedia Fusion and Game Maker that are popular with many other Sonic fan-game designers. You try some Sonic games made with these products but soon discover these games don’t quite have the same feel as the original Sonic the Hedgehog games. Sonic runs too fast, or doesn’t quite climb that hill exactly as he would have in the original games. Something about it just isn’t right. And even then, you wouldn’t be able to play these games on any machine that isn’t running Windows.

You continue searching and find that some people make their Sonic games by writing program code. You hear about all these different programming languages such as C++, Java, Assembly, and you figure you could learn one of the languages. As powerful as they seem, you soon figure out that there’s a lot to understand. Even if you create a simply program that writes “Hello World” to the screen, there’s a lot more involved in a game that you haven’t even begun to figure out yet. The games you play that were written in one of these languages still don’t quite have the same feel as the original Sonic games anyway. You’re soon scared away from this idea.

As your search continues, you find out some people actually modify the original games to make their own. This sounds incredible to you, so immediately you go to check it out. You discover some people use hex editors to modify the games. All the numbers and letters involved look confusing to you, so you look for an alternative solution. You find tools that are quite easy to work with that allow you to make changes without using a hex editor. The only problem is these tools don’t allow you to do everything you’d like to do to the games. Some people modify the games by working with the assembly code, but then you’d have to learn how to program. It seems nothing you look into is exactly what you want.

Now take some time to think about this – what if there was a way to create a Sonic game as accurate as the originals that didn’t involve programming and didn’t have many limitations. If you search around the internet, you won’t find a way to do this. You will be happy to know there will soon be a way!

ProSonic is a game engine interface that you can use to create Sonic the Hedgehog games with the same physics, same feel, and the same style as the original Sonic games. ProSonic avoids as many limitations as possible so you can decide what will be part of your Sonic the Hedgehog game. In addition, it is backwards compatible with data from the original games, so you could make Green Hill Zone part of your new Sonic game if you’d like. If ProSonic sounds appealing to you, continue reading to discover what features and possibilities will be available to you.

Section 2: The Multilateral Strategy

ProSonic is all about incorporating all the pros of Sonic fan-game creation into a single environment. So the approach here is a pro-multilateral strategy. To give you a good idea of what the competition is, let’s break the entire Sonic the Hedgehog fan-game community into separate scenes for a better understanding of this approach:

A. ROM hacking scene

This scene focuses on recreating the original Sonic the Hedgehog games to make something old into new.

Pros

- original game engine physics and game design are already available

- usually easier for teams to work with since data can be imported and exported

- ability to easily recycle graphics and other data from the original games

Cons

- games cannot be played without a Sega Genesis emulator

- many hardware limitations exist for those who want to do more than the Sega Genesis is capable of doing

- tools are limited to what they allow you to do

- programming required to change game functionality

- overall difficult to work with for a variety of reasons

B. Click scene

The click scene promotes the idea of making game creation fun and easy. Products such as Multimedia Fusion, The Games Factory, and Game Maker are used by this scene.

Pros

- creating games is often very easy in general

- in most cases, no programming skills are required

- a lot of flexibility is available to you

Cons

- original Sonic algorithms such as physics cannot be reproduced perfectly

- team projects are a little more difficult

- limited to what the designers of the game design tools offer

- cannot make games for multiple operating system platforms or multiple hardware platforms

- complex games often hog system resources

- lacks some abilities to handle hardware directly

C. Programmers scene

This scene involves using programming languages and tools to design games.

[DimensionWarped]

Pros

- doors open to cross-platform development

- unlimited flexibility available

Cons

- in-depth programming and computer knowledge required

- games only as good as you can program

- can’t reproduce exact Sonic physics and game design without knowing how it all works

- takes a lot of time and effort to create a game

As you can see, each scene has pros and cons. The goal with ProSonic is to combine all the pros of each scene and bring them together into a whole new scene, the ProSonic scene. Sonic the Hedgehog games that play and feel like the original games, should not be difficult to create. No programming knowledge should be required, but it should be available for those who want to use their programming skills. Development tools should be very flexible and easy to use. The Sonic feel, design, and physics should all be built-in. And games should be available on multiple operating system platforms.

Think about this – you’re a ROM hacker and want to create a Sonic game. You can make games that have the same look and feel, but it feels like you constantly have a splinter in your side because you can’t do everything you’d like to do with your game. On top of that, people have to download a Sega Genesis emulator to play your game. Maybe you want to use OGG files to play music instead of the YM2612 synthesis chip used in other Sega Genesis games. Perhaps you even want more colors in your boring 6-bit color levels.

The ProSonic approach to this scenario would be to give you tools that will allow you to create and modify as many things as possible without ever going near a programming language, to allow your game to be played without emulation software on various operating systems, to allow you to choose between YM2612 and OGG music, and to offer you up to 8 or 16 bits of color.

As you will soon read, this strategy involves many goals that have been set in place. This strategy is complex and will take time to get right. By 2008, half of all Sonic fan-game makers should be using ProSonic. That is the overall goal of the entire project, and it will only be accomplished if everything in this outline is put into action. This outline is like a roadmap in that the development of ProSonic will follow it very closely step-by-step.

SECTION 3: Goals to Meet

ProSonic’s success depends heavily on how many people it can target and successfully bring in. What good is it if few people even use it? There are too many examples of good projects that don’t fly all because a couple demands simply are met. Therefore I have outlined several specific goals that must be met in order for ProSonic to be a hit:

A. The engine must be able to recycle levels and other types of data from the original Sonic the Hedgehog games.

B. ProSonic should be easy enough for someone who has no experience in creating games to work with.

C. Anything the original Sonic games could do, ProSonic must also do without requiring source code modifications.

D. The engine must be portable to various platforms besides Microsoft Windows.

E. There should be as few limitations to the engine as possible.

F. ProSonic should be able to run on older computers.

G. ProSonic must offer features that can’t easily (if at all) be done with game creation software or the original games.

H. The engine should be open-source so its programming can be modified.

Point A

The engine must be able to recycle levels and other types of data from the original Sonic the Hedgehog games.

This is especially important for ROM hackers. ProSonic must be able to recycle levels and other types of data from the original games so their work can continue within ProSonic. Part of the plan is to move people away from other forms of Sonic game creation and allow them to seek ProSonic as a better alternative. Levels from Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic 2, Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic CD, and Knuckles’ Chaotix must be compatible with the ProSonic engine. The level data formats are different in some of these games, and that is why ProSonic supports multiple formats.

In addition to levels, sound and music must also be compatible. ProSonic can currently play sound through OGG files and music through MIDI files. This is enough to keep some people happy, but it will not be enough to keep some ROM hackers happy. So there will be an effort to support emulation of the FM, PSG, and PWM chips found in the Sega Genesis and 32X systems. These chips are used to create the synthetic music heard in the original 16-bit and Sonic the Hedgehog games, as well as Knuckles’ Chaotix.

There will be various other types of compatibility between ProSonic and the original games. Plans for compatibility are still being drawn out as the ProSonic engine continues to be developed. As these plans form, they will be announced to the public.

[saxman]

You won't have to worry about posting that entire thing (what you have there is only portions of the document). The links are working again (yay!!)

[djtjj]

When should we expect this to come out?

[DimensionWarped]

You won't have to worry about posting that entire thing (what you have there is only portions of the document). The links are working again (yay!!)

Ah, thats good. I was just about getting ready to start posting the rest actually.

[saxman]

When should we expect this to come out?

Sometime in 2007 most likely, 2008 at the very latest.

Ah, thats good. I was just about getting ready to start posting the rest actually.

Appreciate the help though!

[djtjj]

Sometime in 2007 most likely, 2008 at the very lates

Well I just cant wait! I was planing on making something smiler this my self (much less complex though just some simple character select, level select, and boss select).

[Khorney]

you do realise how complicated prosinic is to make? its not just something you 'do' =P

[djtjj]

I do realise, forgive me for my choice of words, I changed some of it the word do is no longer in that sentence,

[Andrew]

If blogger has tags, perhaps tags all your ProSonic entries with "prosonic". I don't really give two ____s how you promote your engine (which you really don't need to do. If it turns out how you're saying, it'll spread like wildfire anyway) but I'm just trying to give helpful hints to make it easier for people to get to stuff.

I can see where you're coming from, though.

[LarkSS]

you do realise how complicated prosinic is to make? its not just something you 'do' =P

Well actually if you don't try to mimic all the great stuff ProSonic does, you can make something simple with MMF where you can design a level editor and make it be able to link to other levels you've made. You can also have it load external backdrops and stuff so you can have custom backgrounds.

Anyways on topic, whenever ProSonic comes out, I'd really like to try it out, but most likely I'm not going to make something with it. Not because it's bad or anything, but because I'm starting to stray away from Sonic fangaming. I have a question though. Unless if you add the ability for custom backgrounds and sprites that's easy for the user to do, many projects made with ProSonic will seem to be the same. How do you plan to avoid that from happening?

[Serephim]

ill use this engine when you release it, but i really enjoy my own engines alot more.

Awsome work, Saxman.

[MidimanNull]

Hmm, Word 07 out of the blue comes out with a patch that allows users to save as PDF, then you have a PDF formmated document from a word doc?

Hmm.

EDIT: Loving how you show examples, since I thought it was all talk.

[saxman]

To address the issue of games seeming the same, it shouldn't be a problem because all the art will be customizeable. ProSonic won't actually be packaged with any art. The art and objects and such will come in seperate files downloadable from the internet somewhere (either at SFGHQ if it agrees to host a ProSonic database, or at my own site that I would set up). Hopefully when formats get finalized, I can get some people on board to help take their custom sprites and put them into the ProSonic format. This would give people a number of various choices to choose from. And as time moves on, more of these custom sprites and scripts and such will become available. But everything in the entire game graphic-wise will be customizeable. I just use CPZ in most all my screenshots because it's a good level to test on.

I felt the usual talk wasn't doing any good and that people were slowly beginning to doubt me. So to catch people's attention, I wrote that outline. The examples are very effective I believe. In anything I've ever written where I tried to convince someone of something or really grab their attention, it always involved giving an example. So I knew when I began this outline that I had to load it with examples. And hopefully whenever the document gets updated again in the future, I will be able to offer even more examples.

Thanks goes to everyone who has supported this project and my efforts. You can't imagine how much it means to me =)

[Serephim]

I have absolutely no doubts about the engine, its just that me (And im sure alot of others) enjoy doing things theirself alot more. If you pretty much automate everything except the art in the game, then fangaming with the engine is going to practically just become a huge Art contest.

But your engine is still one of the best projects in SFGHQ so far, so you have my full support.

Ill most likely make a few levels with this thing, but building my engines and watching them work is about 60% of the fun for me.

[wesker]

Ill most likely make a few levels with this thing, but building my engines and watching them work is about 60% of the fun for me.

And then theres those of us who don't have time to program or have a lot of trouble doing so.

Now it's just the waiting game. I know these things take time so good luck