Questions about Level Design.

[Flasher the hedgehog]

Just a few basic questions to take some questions regarding the creation of level design stages. I have been reading the topic created by Sparks about Level Design, know the high routes, the routes that only specific characters go, anyway, I know the details you need for a good Level Design, the problem is as follows: how do I start?

Every time I created a stage, I did anyway, without worrying about the beginning, middle and end, without respecting the physics engine, causing bugs and fleeing the theme of the stage.

Ex:

(very old examples):

Part 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

 

I wonder how Level Designers games like Sonic Time Twisted, Sonic BTS / ATS and among others based on the classic create routes stage.

Where do you begin? Create a sketch on paper? Create in the own engine? Anyway, details like these, and if yours have others too.

[InfinityAlex]

Honestly, I just go for it and create the level straight in the engine; it can take a few days to create so me and the rest of the Dynamo Team will edit and fix things when and as we see fit. However, I know that some people on Overture Team prefer to draw out their levels on paper first and then implement them. Also, since joining Sonic Classic 2, I found out that the genius Hez just makes papier mache models of his levels and lets them transmute themselves into actual MMF2 compatible level layouts. However, he has to wait for the papier mache to dry first so this is why Classic 2 is taking a while to complete.

[Riseodvi]

I recommend that you study level layouts. There are plenty of images of entire sonic levels around the internet, and you can observe these to get a sense of how the levels should flow. 

[Flasher the hedgehog]

Interesting about doing in the role, although I tried it once but could not create something from scratch, the photos I posted above are only a few pieces, the beginning of the stage I did like Emerald Hill, I realized I was going well, only that later on I stopped to copy and start create my own routes, but it did not come out very well.

I'll search some layots and see what I can do.

Thanks for the tips.

[PixelClassics]

To be honest the best way you can easily make a level is that you first off think about whats it going to be like, after that you make kind of a lineral stage and THEN you start puting in the hidden/secondary routes

At least that show i do it

[Ell678]

This may not be much help, but I have very rarely drawn a level design out. In the case of Sonic Incursion, I know the theme, and I have some gimmicks drawn / thought out and what kind of speed you can expect to achieve when I first begin.

 

Then I just start. I make it as though I'm playing the game, and I stop every few minutes and play it, to see if it is fun. In terms of the multiple routes, as I'm making and playing, I think "Should there be a branch here? A hidden goodie? Go fast here, or slow down?". This approach hasn't really come back to bite me, so it's the way I will continue to work. It worked wonders with Sonic 1 Alt.

I do suggest having a few gimmick ideas down on paper before you start. This will help you to make specific sections that cater to your gimmicks. My approach is very informal, so it might not work for you.

[Flasher the hedgehog]

This may not be much help, but I have very rarely drawn a level design out. In the case of Sonic Incursion, I know the theme, and I have some gimmicks drawn / thought out and what kind of speed you can expect to achieve when I first begin.

 

Then I just start. I make it as though I'm playing the game, and I stop every few minutes and play it, to see if it is fun. In terms of the multiple routes, as I'm making and playing, I think "Should there be a branch here? A hidden goodie? Go fast here, or slow down?". This approach hasn't really come back to bite me, so it's the way I will continue to work. It worked wonders with Sonic 1 Alt.

I do suggest having a few gimmick ideas down on paper before you start. This will help you to make specific sections that cater to your gimmicks. My approach is very informal, so it might not work for you.

 

I understand, and it seems to work, at least on paper so far. Hehe I have not spent anything for the engine at the time. I just make a map of a stage based on the Emerald Coast of Sonic Adventure but with great differences. I found it interesting how it's getting; when you finish setting the engine already, i begin to build,the stage, but another question came to me.

The Sonic Wolrds have tiles test, the question is: Start to create my level using the test tiles that came with the engine or create my own first then to start?

Sorry if my question is silly but i am working alone in the game, would not want to lose focus while creating the level. Hehe ^^ '

[Mr. Potatobadger]

Poe here.

 

The best example of good level design (that's new) is sonic overture. Look how that is structured.

 

Sonic should be able to automatically fall to the lower path, if he's not doing anything. Getting to the top path should be manual. Getting sonic to want to go to the top path is also veeerry important. This is Overture's one flaw, the top path does not invite you to go up there. Everything that is necessary to doing so is there, but it doesn't invite you. It doesn't do anything like move, and typically isn't that easy to see. It should be easy to see, but not that obvious.

 

 IMO, the top path is the most important.

 

Edit:

To answer your question...

 

I don't recommend using the test tiles, but I also do at the same time. The test tiles don't offer enough shape. The important thing is the SHAPE of your tiles at the beginning, NOT how they look.

[Ell678]

Well, I've never worked with Sonic Worlds, so I have no idea if the test tiles are appropriate. If they suit your needs, I'd suggest using them, just so you can make your level playable. You can make it prettier and more complicated afterwards, and as well, you will know exactly what tiles you need to make when you do it this way.

[DimensionWarped]

I have some of my own opinions on level design that may deviate from the actual classic approach at times (but then, the classic games also had lots of people involved with their level design, so some deviation is expected).

 

1. Alternate paths are a much hailed element that even SEGA started talking about, and it's true that just having multiple routes through a level does aid in replayability. One thing that doesn't get talked about as much though is that if you are going to have multiple routes through a level, you need to think about distinguishing them from the normal route.  A simple example is the lower route in one of the GHZ stages in Sonic 1... Getting to it requires a slightly tricky low jump across some spikes, so it's already a secret route, but what makes it interesting is that the area itself doesn't look like the rest of the level.  It's flatter and it has a natural behind the scenes feel. Having alternate routes is nice, but they are at their best when each route has its own unique feel.

 

2. Take all the crap you hear about standard pathing patterns and things like 'the high path' with a grain of salt. It's a thing, but it's not as important as people act. The reason the high path tends to work so well in a lot of stages is frequently more because its sparsely populated with obstacles than anything positive. It's sort of like how in Kirby games there tend to be some levels that you can just fly over.  It's a little more interactive than that in the Sonic levels that push that angle, but the focus of your levels should always be on the levels. As for standards, just realize that they are over-thought. Most levels don't actually play out like the Green Hill Zone top, middle, and bottom concept.

 

3. The basic unit for how you think in terms of planning levels is the challenge.  This is a somewhat hard to define concept, but one way to go about it is to think of a single lave room with the rising lava eruptions in Marble Zone or a room with conveyor belts and a switch in Labyrinth Zone. Basically the player enters a more self-contained area and has to traverse from point A to point B. If you think this way, you'll probably be less likely to produce repetitive levels. A lot of fangame developers make the mistake of not having discreet areas and instead just having one continuous ambiguous map, sometimes with a little bit of branching, but it all ends up feeling very blah if they don't plan out specific challenges in their levels.

 

4. Use landmarks. One of your biggest goals should be to make players remember parts of your level layout and one of the easiest ways to do this is to have certain visually striking sections populated with background doodads (using the Starcraft definition of the term in case you aren't familiar) in unique configurations.

 

5. Avoid straight areas that don't have any purpose. If you have more than 5 seconds of uninterrupted running, you are probably doing something wrong. That said, the occasional long ramp in preparation for a jump (like in Chemical Plant 2 or parts of Launch Base/Ice Cap Zone) isn't a bad thing.

 

More than anything, I'd just say that best levels are the ones that help the player to remember them. The faster a player can build a mental picture of the level, the more likely they will be to reflect positively on it. For that same reason, I'd recommend against making levels that take more than a couple minutes to complete or are unnecessarily maze-like in nature.

 

Full disclosure: I haven't actually designed any full-blown levels for any Sonic fangame. I have just contributed programming help to a lot of the more high-profile ones. I did do a one act open source level in Worlds one time though.

http://sonicunited.org/forums/index.php?/topic/6900-madcap-grotto-mfa-release/?hl=%2Bmadcap+%2Bgrotto (last post)

[Ell678]

More than anything, I'd just say that best levels are the ones that help the player to remember them. The faster a player can build a mental picture of the level, the more likely they will be to reflect positively on it. For that same reason, I'd recommend against making levels that take more than a couple minutes to complete or are unnecessarily maze-like in nature.

This is an excellent post, and I've highlighted this part for truth. When you are playing your level, you know it inside out, so you will be completing it very quickly. If you can't complete your level safely in under 2-3 minutes, then you need to rethink the size.

[☆PicsAndPixels]

Poe here.

 

The best example of good level design (that's new) is sonic overture. Look how that is structured.

 

Sonic should be able to automatically fall to the lower path, if he's not doing anything. Getting to the top path should be manual. Getting sonic to want to go to the top path is also veeerry important. This is Overture's one flaw, the top path does not invite you to go up there. Everything that is necessary to doing so is there, but it doesn't invite you. It doesn't do anything like move, and typically isn't that easy to see. It should be easy to see, but not that obvious.

 

 IMO, the top path is the most important.

So, what you're saying is, Overture did an awesome job with the level design, and everything is there for you to explore the top path, but it's not INVITING? Wait a minute. The game is supposed to INVITE you to the top part? How would you want us to do that? XD With an arrow made out of rings? The first 3 games didn't have to invite you. You were supposed to WANT to explore the upper path if you want to, not have the game go "oooh look up there! There's goodies!" You don't KNOW there's goodies up there if you don't try it out for yourself.

Also you said it should be "easy to see, but not that obvious."

. . . What? XD What's the compromise here? Make everything visible. . but not show everything? That doesn't make any sense >.< What would you have us do?

[Mr. Potatobadger]

So, what you're saying is, Overture did an awesome job with the level design, and everything is there for you to explore the top path, but it's not INVITING? Wait a minute. The game is supposed to INVITE you to the top part? How would you want us to do that? XD With an arrow made out of rings? The first 3 games didn't have to invite you. You were supposed to WANT to explore the upper path if you want to, not have the game go "oooh look up there! There's goodies!" You don't KNOW there's goodies up there if you don't try it out for yourself.

Also you said it should be "easy to see, but not that obvious."

. . . What? XD What's the compromise here? Make everything visible. . but not show everything? That doesn't make any sense >.< What would you have us do?

Uhh, Ok.

 

Judging by the fact that you didn't understand what I meant, it's pretty obvious you don't know a whole lot about game design.

 

That's not at all what I meant. At All. You have the right idea, you just COMPLETELY misunderstood what I meant.

 

The top path is supposed to spark your curiosity. For example, a moving platform. Or an enemy that's placed in a place above the player. Something that makes the player say, "hey, what's that thing doing up there?" 

 

There doesn't need to be a big sign that says HEY LOOK, GOODIES UP TOP. Or an arrow of rings. Something like a buzz bomber floating up above where you can't reach it. Why is it up there? Oh, there IS something up there!

 

That is what I mean by easy to see, but not too obvious.

 

tl;dr

 

You're on the right track, you just misunderstood the terminology I used.

[Jassbec]

That's already being taken care of, Poe.

[fahyda]

what I suggest is to play a sonic game that you want to try and emulate the game play of, take notes while playing it, and then try designing a level so you can at least make the design choices fit with your game play choice.