What direction should fangaming take?

[The ParadoxX]

Ages ago most Sonic fan-games used the platform movement or were non-sonic styled games. A big revolution happened when the Static Engine became popular, influencing every game that came after it, raising the standards to another level. But the last revolution was when the 360 engine was born, it evolved to the point that now we have an engine almost 1:1 to the classic, used by half of the fan-games nowadays.

But what's going to happen from now on? I've seen some posts here commenting about how most of the fan-games became Sonic Worlds with different graphics with no innovation.

That brought me some questions that I would like to know other people's opinions... Does the classic style needs innovation? Are people bored of the classic gameplay? Copying graphics, game style or other things from the official games is a bad thing? Does the standard raised so much that a hobby like fan-gaming became too hard to conciliate with real life, so that nobody finish or work too much in their games? What do you expect to see in a fan-game nowadays?

Except for a full game, I guess we all already expect it!

[luksamuk]

I personally think people should care about

.

Have anyone already tried to make something more different to look like the actual Sonic cartoons?

Fangaming is going to a trail where it's not challenging anymore. As you said, Paradoxx, we've aleady reached an engine almost 1:1 to the classic. Next step will be making it work more 1:1, but it will only be done by the advanced fangamers; newbies won't care about that, will just use it.

It's about time to think on a different gameplay, specially on 3D. There's SonicGDK here, which also doesn't get the much attention it deserves in this forum.

The future of Classic Sonic is either Modern Sonic or another style we still didn't see.

[sonicyoda]

I think I know who you're referring to in regards to the "Sonic Worlds with different graphics" comment and I'd like to personally see to it that the comment is debunked.

An engine is an engine; a tool to create a game. People aren't just dumping in any old sprites and graphics and calling it a fan game; they're painstakingly developing their own stages with unique aesthetics and gimmicks and putting a fresh spin on a tried and tested formula.

I'm very fond of where 2D fan games are now. Some of the projects I'm seeing either now or earlier at this year's SAGE are really, really good and it's great to see Worlds so widely used as it's one of the best tools out there for making enjoyable Sonic fan games.

Arguably, the next big leap for fangaming is getting a decent 3D engine up and running and seeing a game get released using it. Sonic GDK is getting close and I'd be massively supportive of any game that was released using it.

[P3DR0]

There are games and games.

Classic style needs inovations? Maybe. But not on itself but only on creative gimmicks and creative ways of using it's momentum engine.

Bored of Classic Gameplay? Hell no. I had the time of my life with Classic Sonic and the first three stages on Sonic Generations. I'm bored of those classic-style games that barely has gimmicks or good level design and stuff like this. I mean, look at Sonic Fusion... That game is an example of level design, for both classic and modern Sonics.

Copying graphics, game style or other things from the official games is a bad thing? Not really, it's good that people creates their own places, their own ideas but it's a good thing to copy those so the person can stay on the ground a little and make a Sonic game. Not a Sonic game with Mario graphics, or Zelda, or Crysis (for 3D), etc... Is important to stay on the tracks 'cus one of the most awesome things on Sonic games (and even in some fangames) it's the ambient, the places created and stuff.

Does the standard raised so much that a hobby like fan-gaming became too hard to conciliate with real life, so that nobody finish or work too much in their games? Not really. If you see nowadays we have even more professional games. It's easier, the internet has so many information, not just about fangaming but graphics, sounds, etcetara...

Why people don't finish their games are probably because they're not taking as a hobby anymore and get pissed when the project doesn't get much attention, (like these bitches are Sonic Team or something). Or if still take as a hobby, soon or later get tired, don't like it's own ideas and decide to, or start a new one, or cancel. I'm not really sure why people cancel their games, I'd made two already... The first, SDLA had a lot of fame, mio caro. But I'd grown tired of the mechanics, the engine was too limited and painful to work with (It wasn't even a 360º engine, was a static engine with a 180º engine adaptation). The second, Sonic Emerald Twist I think I got a little bit overexcited, started planning stuff and stuff and stuff. And when you get to the part where you start making graphics... I kept trying to place more stuff in the game. Soon or later I got bored, confused, and it was looking like shit.

Then I started Henceforth again, a new engine was made and when we got to the part where you start making levels my "co-pilot" asked me if I didn't want to make the sprites in 3D... So we started everything again, hahaha. I guess that the moral of the history is, do not give up. You can start as many projects as you please, but it's not cause people don't give it so much of attention or because you're driving yourself crazy on your own ideas that you should give up. It's a hobby, don't take it too serious. And most important: Stop trying to recreate shits, classic games or modern games. Use your own ideas, your own concepts. It's not because it's a classic-style game that Sonic cannot have some new skill or cannot talk, etc... It's a game, the idea behind fangaming (at least it's what I believe in) is trying to create what, in your opinion, whould be the best Sonic game ever and that's what I'm trying to make now that I'm working on STH.

What do you expect to see in a fan-game nowadays? The Game. Now that you, ParadoxX, have lost the game I can explain...

Constantly we're beein bombed with "chek dis screen for mah game", and sometimes videos... But never the actual game, never a beta, nothing.

[Strife]

I think fangaming could branch off into multiple directions. Some developers will make what is essentially extra levels for the classic games, while others will use the physics for non-Sonic related projects, and most will fall somewhere in between those two extremes. With such solid 1:1 engines out there, I think there's a lot more room than ever for some really creative game design, and it's only going to get better in future when hobbyists start making more solid 3D engines.

[Serephim]

Fangaming is going to a trail where it's not challenging anymore.

I disagree. The issue going on these days is that fangaming has indeed become far too difficult to maintain.

Back during the platforming days, we tried to not get stuck in walls. Around the time of Static, engines were alot more solid, but we still had alot of limitations on speed and reliability. The Pixel method helped fix that alot i think (mostly because we were finally using loops correctly). And after we mastered that, a few smartasses realized they could apply some trig to the engine, and we soon afterwards got Sonic Worlds. Back in the older days, we were happy with path movement slopes and shit. But these days, we have Worlds to handle...well, pretty much everything else. In that sense, yeah fangames have gotten easier.

But with previous limitations lifted, our focuses begin to shift -- we aren't impressed with loops, slopes, corkscrews, anti-stick ceilings and fast speed anymore. Now we're more focused on things like unique gimmicks, nice visuals and good game design -- you know, the things that people look for in a game they'd actually pay money for. The problem with this is that it actually takes more than tools and materials to put something together. Newbies walk in here, pick up an engine, and are simply happy to see sonic run in loops, grab rings and bounce off springs. Other people would rather focus on the visuals of their game, to fully show what they want their version of a stage to look like. Others focus on more technical aspects like gimmicks and bosses, and some try to go the whole 9 yards.

See, i think most people get very much into it, and then realize they simply do not have what it takes to ever complete something with that kind of commitment. We aren't just making neat looking paths and cutscenes anymore -- we're trying to make full-blown games, with custom graphics, gimmicks, bosses, stage concepts, storylines, 2-acts per stage, everything. And not only are we trying to include all of this into the game, but we're trying to make it look impressive as well. Now that we've finally gotten to the level where we can literally recreate the old sonic games and actually improve on them from the ground up, we find that it really isn't as easy as we used to think it was. A few of us are organized enough to actually get something done, but the rest of us...

What direction do I think fangaming should take?

I think people should just lighten the fuck up for a change. Quit worrying so much about what people will think of the palette you chose for this tile, or the fact that you mixed/matched stage graphics together, or that sand inbetween mountains doesn't make sense, or that your stage doesn't follow some specific strict idea. You don't have to create a unique gimmick to look like a good game designer. You don't have to polish every single asset you create for your fangame, just make sure it works and doesn't look like some kind of artifacted paint bucket filled mess. By all means, recolor your characters, nobody honestly gives a shit. And you know what, I HONESTLY don't even care if you mix sprites of different eras together either. I will get your point, i honestly would.

this is longer than i expected, so TL;DR:

Just make your goddamn fangame. Because no matter how you spin it, it is just. A fucking. Fangame. Stop worrying so much about your custom visuals and shit; nobody who isn't a sonic fan will ever give a fuck, unless you do an absolutely spectacular job, and even still if you were to get that popular off of it, you're an idiot anyway because you could have spent that time creating something that could actually get you paid.

[DimensionWarped]

If you want to make something half-assed Sereph, no one is stopping you. Feel free to take your own advice and leave the rest of us to do whatever pleases us with our time. You are talking about people needing to chill out in an amusingly devoid-of-chill fashion while those of us who are actually working on these big projects that you seem so fond of foaming at the mouth about are doing so at a perfectly casual pace.

I fangame because I'm in a learning mode. I wouldn't have any qualms about ripping off the whole concept of Sonic and developing a full game based on it if it weren't for the risk involved, so I stick to these low risk activities. One day I'd like to be a sharp enough person to make something of my own, and I wouldn't be adverse to making something derivative from Sonic. In fact, I wouldn't be adverse to making things that are derivative to a lot of the games that I feel have shaped my tastes in games. But Sonic is special, and as long as the assets are there, that will be my practicing ground. I'm meticulous about it because I want to make something that I can enjoy playing and I want to push myself, so the details matter to me. People don't get better unless they do things that are 'hard'.

Frankly, this topic (rather, the too-serious attitude of fangames being 'too serious') is spreading like a cancer and it's getting a little annoying.

More in line with what this topic actually seems to be about though... that's to say, where fan games should be going from here, I'd like to say that I think they should be getting more experimental. Making games in the classic-Sonic style is fine and good, and I'd say that yes, it's probably an ideal jumping point for creating something of your own, at least compared to the alternatives, but developers should generally strive to differentiate themselves from their source material. I'm never as thrilled to play an expansion as an evolution. Basically, I think what people should strive for with fangames is to take classic Sonic and do something similar to what SMB3 and SMW did with the foundation that was laid out in the original SMB. And no, I don't mean maps or new power ups and bigger/more involved levels so much as changing key details and rules to make it your own.

As for 3D fangames, I don't really want to see fangames going in that direction unless there starts being some communal 3D art pool that people can rely on, because otherwise making 3D levels is just absurdly time consuming and generally unrewarding.

[GSF]

Please don't take it as an offense, but I do understand what Sereph is trying to convey. HOWEVER... These games, and these goals aren't a bad thing: everyone is free to take whatever direction he/she wants. The question shouldn't be "What direction should fangaming take" but "How to improve my own project".

It is not undeniable that many projects now use the Sonic Worlds engine as a base to work on. But that doesn't mean every game will be the same. Not everyone here is well experienced into the complexity that a Sonic engine has, and SW comes to give a little boost to that. Therefore, makers have more time and chance to work on unique gameplay elements (the so called gimmicks), new characters, stories, whatever.

I like unique projects though. A fangame doesn't have to be true to the original gameplay elements. One Girl Army is a beat-'em up, but it's still a Sonic (or Amy) fangame. MAdventure is an action RPG-Zelda hybrid... It's still a Sonic fangame.

But whether to make something true to the classics, that improves the classics, or takes a completely different approach altogether, is up to the maker.

Every maker has his reasons. Now I'm about to scrap another version of my RPG engine, making that eleven iterations. But I like to work on it. If people like to concentrate on level design/gimmicks/enemy-boss design instead of story, it's okay. If people like to concentrate on visuals instead of new content, it's okay. Nobody forces you to play or watch the material. If you are dissatisfied, simply leave them be. I'm tired of the "Generic Shooter" series of games that keep coming out, but I simply don't buy them. I don't boycott them, nor create endless rants online, it's useless and won't do anything.

Whether it's a half-assed game, or a "serious" game, whatever you want to call it... Leave the maker work on whatever he/she wants in the way he/she wants. Don't like it? Then simply don't watch or play.

So in the end, if a SW fangame with almost Genesis feel comes out... I'll play it. If a Sonic brawler comes out, I'll play it. If a 3D experiment comes out, I'll try it.

There's all kinds of makers and projects. And even if they do use the same tools and engine, no project is the same. At all.

---------------------------------

Personally, I'd like to see more daring things, games that greatly change the elements. There's a "Portal Mario" out there, imagine how interesting "Portal Sonic" would be.

I'm not saying classic is bad though. Nor modern. I enjoyed Colors just as much as I enjoyed playing SA1 and even S2. don't kill me

I just want to try fun stuff - no matter how classic or revolutionary it may be.

Play (and make) nice.

[Rawr]

I see both sides of the coin and I gotta agree with Sereph as well as DW in different points.

I think people have gotten perhaps a little too anal over certain things when it comes to their fangames. By no means do I mean that I want to see people half ass their stuff, but at the same time I think people judge these things a little too harshly. Especially when it comes to sprites. Not everyone here is going to be a graphical wiz, yet there are a lot of high expectations for the look of a level to be really different and unique to the game and to be of high-calibur. I assume this is why a lot of people mix and match graphics together to make their levels look unique, however even then some people are not going to be able to do it in a way that looks awesome. Some people just want to make a game that is nothing more than levels made in the Sonic Worlds engine. Which is totally cool by me too. There is I think too high of a standard around here sometimes where people are expecting better than retail quality, out of a hobby project.

Personally fangaming kind of is a double edged sword in some ways. Yeah you benefit from it in terms of learning stuff, but at the same time all you really learn to do is to copy an existing engine and add a few things to it (outside of the fangames that radically change things of course). I see it almost like when I used to do fanart for soooooooooo many years. After a while I simply just hit a cap of improvement and was going no further. But I broke off away from that after realizing that the time I spent to make fanart could be better spent making something I own all the rights to. Things I could use. I see a lot of talented people here that I wish would just go out and make their own original IPs already, or team up with eachother to do so, because I know they'd have what it takes.

When it comes to the subject of making 'experimental' fan games this is now where the whole "I wish you'd make a new IP" thing comes into play. Why spend the time creating this really amazing idea for a fan game when its appeal will be severely limited. Why not put together a team and make something with a broader appeal? I always look forward to whenever Steven M posts for example because he always is bringing something new and different to the table (even if I have yet to play a finished game of his haha). There is nothing wrong with being derivative of the things you like though and if someone made a Sonic-esque game I'd be ecstatic to see it. The fact is there is a lot of talent here that if banded together could create something far greater than fangames. This comes to mind especially for the members that have been around for a long long time, I think by now you guys should have learned enough to do this?

But at the same time if making fangames is your hobby and you simply don't want to make games for a living and just kinda contribute your love back to a franchise that people really love I can't argue with that either. I'm here because I do enjoy playing these fan games as well, I would never really want to see them gone. I do think though that there is a point to move on. I see lots of really creative ideas for enemies and levels and other various things around here that at times I wish those people would just get moving onto something original.

But to answer the question as to where I think fangaming should go? I'll echo gsoft.

So in the end, if a SW fangame with almost Genesis feel comes out... I'll play it. If a Sonic brawler comes out, I'll play it. If a 3D experiment comes out, I'll try it.

There's all kinds of makers and projects. And even if they do use the same tools and engine, no project is the same. At all.

Because when it comes to fangames I'm never gonna be paying for these, and they're just tributes to a franchise I really love. I don't like to tear into fangames much because I like to see them get finished. I'd rather have a finished project be released that can be played and enjoyed than a lot of unfinished engine tests and one level demos because of a standard nobody with a hectic life can ever hope to reach in a timely manner.

TL;DR : I'd like to see more original things other than fangames...but I also don't mind fangames and think you should just make what you want to make and have fun.

[Sslaxx]

When it comes to games, more stuff like "Eggman Hates Furries" would be interesting to see, take the Sonic platformer in different directions. You don't really need to stray that far from the formula to make excellent and interesting games though - "Before the Sequel" is a good example of that one. But in terms of tech, UDK is perhaps the most mature platform for Sonic games to use in terms of 2D and 3D gaming, though as yet there isn't anything out there. I'd be happy to see anything good.

[DimensionWarped]

When it comes to the subject of making 'experimental' fan games this is now where the whole "I wish you'd make a new IP" thing comes into play. Why spend the time creating this really amazing idea for a fan game when its appeal will be severely limited. Why not put together a team and make something with a broader appeal? I always look forward to whenever Steven M posts for example because he always is bringing something new and different to the table (even if I have yet to play a finished game of his haha). There is nothing wrong with being derivative of the things you like though and if someone made a Sonic-esque game I'd be ecstatic to see it. The fact is there is a lot of talent here that if banded together could create something far greater than fangames. This comes to mind especially for the members that have been around for a long long time, I think by now you guys should have learned enough to do this?

Alright, think about this a second.

Yes, many of us probably currently have the talent necessary to develop original IP and could probably make some money selling these things on Steam or on a mobile platform or whatever else Indy devs are using to hawk stuff these days... but departing from the whole fangame scene makes it necessary to get a lot broader of a talent base. And these people will need some form of compensation for their efforts (and most people believe it or not aren't fond of the "we'll figure out how to split the assets later" approach)

Right now, any person can basically make a game if they have programming talent graphics-minded people can usually attract programming talent if they lack it. The other type of talent that tends to hang around would be music, which is a subset of sound, but what I'm getting at is that no one here really specializes in sound effects. We sort of just take them for granted really. I personally have no idea how people ever even produced old school sound effects outside of some vague idea of recording, downsampling, and applying various filters to get it to sound the way they wanted. Likewise most of us approach graphics from the angle of finding source material and manipulating it to fit our purpose. This is perfectly fine for fangaming, but it would be very much less than kosher in the real world.

Of course, part of our problem is that we are attracted to the notion of making large games with unique levels and that sort of thing, and if you've looked at the Indy scene and what sells in it, it's mostly either really simple games with mechanics that build up slowly but more or less remain the same (stuff like Peggle, Plants vs Zombies, Cut the Rope, Angry Birds, etc) or else everything is just very procedurally generated so that a programmer can concentrate on automating content generation rather than actually having to recruit a bunch people for content generation (Minecraft, Spelunky to a degree, and others that for some reason I can't think of right now). The type which most of us big classic Sonic type people try to make generally isn't very compatible with that. If any of us wanted to take something like Sonic and turn it into a profitable indy game, a lot of revamping on the design would be necessary.

[OverbounD]

But designing Sonic games does prepare you to take on more original things.

[Rawr]

Alright, think about this a second.

Yes, many of us probably currently have the talent necessary to develop original IP and could probably make some money selling these things on Steam or on a mobile platform or whatever else Indy devs are using to hawk stuff these days... but departing from the whole fangame scene makes it necessary to get a lot broader of a talent base. And these people will need some form of compensation for their efforts (and most people believe it or not aren't fond of the "we'll figure out how to split the assets later" approach)

Not always. I'd really like to point everyone to Pixel, creator of Cave Story. Or Konjak, who has made Noitu Love and a fuckton of other things. It certainly is possible. Sure it takes a lot longer to do it but at least that time spent can get you something in return if you have something of quality. I mean yeah its hard to make megabucks off stuff but at least its better than nothing. Either way there are lots of cases of small tiny one or two people teams making some wicked platforming games that naturally grow into something more.

I do understand your concerns and I think I presented my opinion in more or less an extreme angle. I understand there are a lot of different things involved with making a game (fuck I took an entire course dedicated to 3D animation + game design and have had experience with group projects...and they're quite intense) but I was trying to make a point that the time spent tweaking someone elses IP might be more worthwhile to start working on an engine for your own thing instead. I've personally been kicking around an idea for a game in my head lately and I might start making sprites for it just for kicks and might throw something together in Gamemaker (I've gotta learn that shit first) but for me personally doing THAT would fulfill me much more than making something out of someone else's property.

Different strokes for different people though. Still though I am not trying to devalue fangaming, I want to make that clear haha. I really appreciate what people make and I do kind of admire that sort of dedication to a craft, no matter what it is. I just think we've got so much talent here that it'd be cool to see a few people make the leap beyond I guess!

[DimensionWarped]

And to be honest, there is little more that I'd like to do than to own a little game studio some time before the next five years are up. It's just really hard to put my life on hold to make an attempt at that and I'd like to have some legitimate (as in, as part of my career) leadership experience before I go for something like that. I think I 'get' game development well enough to be successful at it, and I'm pretty highly skilled as far as programmers at my level of professional experience go, but for someone like me to make the jump from hobbyist to professional game developer isn't a move to be taken lightly. I want to be able to confidently lead a varied team of individuals and have a steady financial base to lean on for when I take the plunge.

[Rawr]

And to be honest, there is little more that I'd like to do than to own a little game studio some time before the next five years are up. It's just really hard to put my life on hold to make an attempt at that and I'd like to have some legitimate (as in, as part of my career) leadership experience before I go for something like that. I think I 'get' game development well enough to be successful at it, and I'm pretty highly skilled as far as programmers at my level of professional experience go, but for someone like me to make the jump from hobbyist to professional game developer isn't a move to be taken lightly. I want to be able to confidently lead a varied team of individuals and have a steady financial base to lean on for when I take the plunge.

I can actually sympathize with this really. In a different field though of course. Either way I wish you luck in that goal anyway, I'd like to see it happen for you.

[Serephim]

I honestly have no clue how konjak is able to do all that shit. I guess the art asset portion of the process isn't that big a deal to him...?

[Rawr]

I honestly have no clue how konjak is able to do all that shit. I guess the art asset portion of the process isn't that big a deal to him...?

I'd argue against that. I see him on Twitter talking about how he just went overboard on something that could otherwise be simple haha. I think the dude is just insane (in the best possible way). He also has been making the music for Iconoclasts AFAIK. I'll just chalk it up the guy is a hard worker and really talented.

[Strife]

Y'know, there have been times in the past few years where I've dreamed of becoming the next "one man army" of indie gaming, like Pixel or Konjak. Then again, I'm not entirely sure that they had a wife and kids that they needed to spend time with on the side, and you'd need autistic levels of dedication and talent to churn out so many high-quality titles in such a short amount of time. Still, there's been more than a few instances where people have straight-up told me that they would buy my games if I was selling them, and as time goes on, it's becoming more and more apparant to me that game development is the only skill I have that would earn me an income. I don't have the physical or social ability to perform well in any other type of job, especially since I live in a country where I can't speak the native language.

In a way, fangaming is like a crutch - it can be hindering to people who want to improve their talents, but it can also serve to guide them forward until they can stand on their own two feet. The fact is, Sonic's fanbase is massive. If you've ever browsed Youtube for videos of Sonic fangames, you'll notice that the better ones commonly have view counts in the tens of thousands. Heck, even this forum gets hundreds of unique guests each day, which is a really high count compared to the number of active members. From personal experience, my Youtube account contains many of my original compositions and remixes, and you want to know which video of mine has the highest view count? A remix of a Sonic tune with over 2000 views, compared to my second most popular video which has about 1000.

With all of this in mind, it's easy to see how fangaming can be lucrative to people who are looking to earn a name for themselves as an indie developer. Even those who are just making a Sonic game as a loving tribute and nothing more can be assured that they're more likely to get noticed.

[VectorSatyr]

I'm reminded of a comment someone made about this article:

Perhaps the majority of coders I’ve known fall at one extreme or other of an interesting dichotomy – they either want to write interesting features themselves from the bottom up, or they want to play with 3rd party software and libraries to implement those features quickly. But either way they are playing their own ‘development game’ which is more about the technology’s intrinsic properties and not so much about what the technology is to be used for. Programmers get bogged down in optimising code that already runs fast enough or switching to a new and shinier 3D engine because those challenges are often more interesting to them than shipping a finished game. Perhaps that’s why they’re programmers and not managers!

In my opinion, what you as a creator get out of making games is far more important than what others get by you finishing it (or are denied by you not finishing it). There's no good reason to give power to the observers who gain from having your project available to consume if there's nothing for you to gain out of it, as long as you're not making excuses to avoid owning up to a lack of actual discipline towards getting what you want.

I like playing games as much as the next guy, but I want them to be refined and polished. I'm not going to detract from my values just because Seraph would accept anything less. If my project gets stuck in development hell, oh well. Getting it to a certain height of accomplishment, to me, is satisfying on its own, and it's not like he or anyone else is going to really compensate me if it's finished any sooner. In fact, I wouldn't want them to!

EDIT:

On-topic, as far as it goes towards building the health of the community itself, I'd say the direction fangaming is going right now is just fine. Maybe the attitude could be toned down a little; I certainly wouldn't condone going around, telling people they're stupid for liking recolors and poorly written fanfiction. Nevertheless, as long as that attitude isn't going out of its way to push people away from the act actually making fangames (which it isn't), there's nothing really wrong with how the community is shaping as a result. Any percieved 'death' to this community is mostly due to its long time members having less time to themselves and there being larger, more widely known sites for newbies to coalesce into.