A Homing Attack Replacement

[Candescence]

Now, bear with me, this is mostly the results of a sudden surge of inspiration.

For a long time, I've been a rather vocal opposer of the homing attack. Originally, it was a crutch in order to solve the problem of targeting in 3D. However, besides being rather unimaginative, it's also cheap, difficulty-breaking, messes with momentum, redundant, and, well, Sonic Team/Dimps tends to use it as an excuse for lazy level design. And even worse, it's managed to creep into the 2D games, where it has no place in.

I've been wondering about a possible replacement. Then, for some reason, I thought about the Dive Kick from the recent Castlevania games, starting with Symphony of the Night. Sonic has a similar foot-stomp move, which turned up in Smash Bros. Brawl and in Unleashed, but... If done right, it could replace the homing attack entirely.

Alright, let's start simple - how would it work in 2D?

How the Dive Kick works in 2D Castlevania:

• While in mid-air, if the player pressed jump while holding down, the character performs a dive kick.
  
• If just down is held, the character kicks straight down. If down and forward is held, a 45-degree kick is performed.
  
• These kicks are generally weak, go in a straight line, and bounce off enemies.
  

A kick chain for that long is quite tricky.

This is... Pretty much how it would work in 2D Sonic. However, there would be additional factors. The kick speed is dependent on the player's momentum. The faster Sonic is going, the quicker the kick, and if he hits his target, the player is rewarded with a bounce as normal, and possibly extra speed.

However, there is a risk to doing this. Unlike the homing attack, which can be a used as a quick speed-up method, the Dive Kick, if it hits the ground, stops Sonic entirely. If you miss an enemy with the kick, you lose your momentum, but if you miss while trying to jump on it normally, you don't lose momentum. On the other hand, a Dive Kick going straight down could possibly used as a mid-air brake, but it can be risky, especially as Sonic can't move out of the way of hazards below him.

So, in short, it does not automatically replace simply jumping on enemies - it has its own advantages and disadvantages.

How it would work in 3D:

Now, in 3D... There is still a targeting reticule, and Sonic is automatically aimed towards the enemy when the attack is performed. However, Sonic only aims at the start of the kick. Once he begins the actual kick itself, he goes in a straight line, and cannot control his own direction until he hits the ground or bounces off an enemy. As well, the range is heavily limited, since the angle of the Dive Kick is limited as well. The HA has a disturbing habit in recent games of having a ludicrous range. The Dive Kick would require a close-range execution to actually be effective, especially against moving targets. This adds an element of skill.

Also, once again, momentum is preserved, and encouraged, as to make the kick more effective. A Dive Kick from stand-still, while somewhat fast, can be dodged, either by an intelligent enemy, or a human opponent. In other words, spamming the move is not an intelligent idea. Kick chains could be possible, but difficult to pull off.

In summary: The Dive Kick works in both 2D and 3D, lacks redundancy as a unique move in its own right, requires skill, concept has been tested and proven in other games, and, well, anything is better than the Homing Attack.

Thoughts?

[Nemox]

I'm rather fond of the homing attack to a point. I do agree that it can be broken at times, and this dive kick could be a great new take. However, I think it could be taken a step farther in being a replacement. Have not only a dive kick, but also several other context-sensitive moves, like Smash Bros has. Might be a bit difficult to pull off in 3D, but 2D would work for sure.

Then other directions' 'kicks' of sorts could be used as hang-time boosters and nudgers, sort of like when you shake a pinball machine to affect the ball.

It'd have a similar effect to Sonic's old 'shield attack' thing from 3.

[Candescence]

The Insta-Shield was... Kinda different. However, remember this is a platform game we're talking about, not a fighting game. Stuffing too many context-sensitive functions onto one button can be detrimental.

[OverbounD]

The homing attack doesn't need replaced it just needs removed. Based on what you said I'd like this kick even less. Look at SMG for its attack it uses that spin move which allows mario attack at almost any angle. With Sonic he's already able to attack at all angles when he jumps. I figure if that works for Mario without a homing attack its good enough for Sonic right? Well its probably more accurate to say it would be good enough for Sonic if Sonic games didn't suffer from several other design flaws. Sega has been using the homing attack to cover up design flaws since SA 1. Like I said 3d Mario never needed a homing attack, the well recieved 3d Crash games that were well recieved for the original PS never needed a homing attack. so why the hell would a well designed 3d Sonic game need one? It wouldn't

[Candescence]

Well, even if it wasn't meant to 'replace' the HA... It's a nifty move in its own right in 2D, at least, Castlevania proves as much.

However, in 3D, your mention of a 'spin attack' which both Mario and Crash use isn't QUITE applicable to Sonic at high speeds... Wait. We already have an attack like that. It's called the Boost, and I'm pretty sure nobody likes THAT one, either. And in the air, it's difficult to hit an enemy at high speed by just jumping.

High speed attacking is a tricky business, isn't it?

[OverbounD]

Your right that the spin attack wouldn't work with Sonic's current and flawed formula. Sonic is just too fast right now so fast that its more like driving than platforming. If the formula was fixed then a spin attack would work. But a move that would be similar but more Sonicy would just be to give Sonic a spin dash move and he could enter and leave at the push of a button kind of like Samus's ball move from prime. A spin dash like that would give Sonic a ground attack and could be performed without a speed reduction.

[Candescence]

That would certainly work. In terms of aerial attacking, perhaps removing the lock-on aspect and just having it as a 45 degree kick if holding forward. I dunno.

[Djawed]

Just like overbound, I think your idea is worse for both 2d and 3d. In a 2d game the homing attack shouldn't be there at all.

For a 3d game however I had a different idea to replace the homing attack:

You have the instashield that functions as a quick shield but also for a slightly larger reach in s3k.

I'd take the instashield but make it function a whole different way. Since it is hard to bounce on enemies in a 3d environment, i'd make an instashield for the 3d games with a larger reach than the 2d games. Hitting an enemy with the instashield would also make you bounce higher upwards than you would bounce with a normal spinning jump. Bouncing higher will give you time to aim at the next enemy and than you use the instashield again. The move cannot be spammed. After doing it once you will not be able to do it twice, only if you hit an or object you will be able to use it again. Not only would this fix the enormous reach of the homing attack but it would also prevent the player from spamming the jump button. Instead now you have to jump, aim and time the instashield at the right time, and than aim yourself again at the next enemy and time the jump button again and repeat(if there are more objects/enemies in the way)

This will require you to master it and become good at it. Too bad I cannot demonstrate it, but i'd like to know what you all think.

[Candescence]

Just like overbound, I think your idea is worse for both 2d and 3d. In a 2d game the homing attack shouldn't be there at all.

What. Oh, for the love of-did you even read my post properly? It's supposed to replace the HA in its original function (aiming in 3D) without feeling at all like a homing move.

In 2D, the Dive Kick wouldn't even RESEMBLE the HA in the slightest. I've already shown proof from actual gameplay that it works in 2D. The SOTN vid looks a lot easier than it actually is to pull off. The Dive Kick is not game breaking nor redundant, and has been proven to be a neat move in its own right in 2D at the very least.

Hell, it could actually work quite well in 3D without any sort of lock-on. Who knows.

[OverbounD]

Castlevania is a much different kind of game than 2D or 3D Sonic. I think when he said 2D and 3D he was referring to Sonic specifically so his opinion is valid. Still its not that the move is a bad idea really I just don't think its for Sonic. I don't think Sonic needs any kind of homing move. Certainly not a kick not when he can curl up into a ball and become a spinning buzz saw of death. I mean isn't that cooler than a kick any day? And so much more Sonic. I guess in the end though a move set depends on your ideal Sonic game and everyone has a different opinion on that.

[luksamuk]

Hmm, I always felt that the Homing Attack had to be replaced even in 3D games by a move that would make Sonic realize a complete and perfect parabolic move agains the nearest enemy, not only that straight line the Homing has.

But it's kinda hard to explain - and even to program. The engine must recognize Sonic's last jump and add more distance to it - or even give the move a "bowl" effect.

[Djawed]

What. Oh, for the love of-did you even read my post properly? It's supposed to replace the HA in its original function (aiming in 3D) without feeling at all like a homing move.

In 2D, the Dive Kick wouldn't even RESEMBLE the HA in the slightest. I've already shown proof from actual gameplay that it works in 2D. The SOTN vid looks a lot easier than it actually is to pull off. The Dive Kick is not game breaking nor redundant, and has been proven to be a neat move in its own right in 2D at the very least.

Hell, it could actually work quite well in 3D without any sort of lock-on. Who knows.

Hey i'm sorry if I came off a bit rude and wasn't clear enough. But yeah, sonic doesn't need another added move imo... unless maybe from a powerup shield. But kicking, why would he need that? He allready has that awesome spin jump that makes him attack from every side unlike other platformers where they specifically have to jump 'on' an enemy. It doesn't need to become more complicated than that. It was allready fun enough mastering that '1 button' gameplay them creators intentionally made that way.

I'm a big castlevania fan myself so I know what you mean .

Was the 3d idea not clear enough by the way? An instashield with a longer range than s3k but when used bounces you higher upwards so you can continue to the next enemy and do the same thing.

Here a little concept

I know it sucks:icon_razz: but I hope it makes it more clear.

[Streak Thunderstorm]

Jumpdash /thread

[DimensionWarped]

Sonic Colors has both Jump Dash and Homing Attack mapped to separate buttons. They kinda nerfed jump dash though, since using it seems to leave you vulnerable if you aren't boosting.

[Candescence]

Certainly not a kick not when he can curl up into a ball and become a spinning buzz saw of death. I mean isn't that cooler than a kick any day? And so much more Sonic.

Well, it's not like Sonic couldn't utilise his feet for more than just running, I mean, god damn, if he can run like that, imagine how strong his kicks might be, haha.

But, really, as I said, this whole thing was a bit fat brain surge that I just thought was a good idea without really thinking it through thoroughly. As I said, the most ideal thing would be to remove the need for an "aid" for aerial attack aiming. Thinking about it now, though, Jwiwo's method might work quite well. Who knows.

God damn, if only we could test this shit out somehow. *Waits for the SonicGDK to be finished*