Sonic is back! and playing....Tennis??

[Pheonix Gamma]

That's misplacing the burden of proof.

Also, opinions are opinions.

[Serephim]

Sereph, if you are just going to listen to reviews then you will never play another Sonic title again. Sonics name has been drug through the dirt so hard that now it just has the "Ugh, a SONIC title" feel to it, they aren't going to give a Sonic title anything above average anymore. Judge by yourself. If you are one of those stuck up people that refuse to give Sega any money, then just rent it.

I dont find that true. From the reviews IGN gave the last few sonic games, most of everything they graded on was accurate from my playthrough before i even read it. I BOUGHT Sonic Heroes, i BOUGHT Shadow the Hedgehog, and ive played through plenty stages of Sonic the Hedgehog 06 to know what their talking about through the rest of their in-depth review.

Shadow the hedgehog sucked, Sonic the hedgehog sucked. Sonic Riders was pretty fun but nothing to really remember. Secret Rings was fun but lacking somewhat in gameplay. I feel IGN has more sense than to simply rate a game bad because they hate the character. Afterall, Sonic Heroes actully got around the 8+ range, and i feel it deserved it, as it seems to be the last game Sega apparently TRIED on. The only people i know that rate games based on whether they like the franchise or not is Gamespot, who finds retarded reasons to give games bad scores.

Ill look at a review, but seldom will i just not play or like a game because it got a bad review. Now, a horrible score WILL stop me from buying a game. (which is why after Shadow the Hedgehog i just borrowed the other sonic games until i got tired of them.)

And WTH, Paper Mario was NOT that bad a game.

[Spike]

Sega tries, they just don't have the same people working for them that they did in the golden days. Workers come and go, eventually you are going to get different little styles here and there. That, and Sega is a slllooooooowwww going company. If they get due dates, they have to end the game abruptly or just let some glitches stay. See: Sonic 3

[VectorSatyr]

And WTH, Paper Mario was NOT that bad a game.

Not Paper Mario. Super Paper Mario. ;

[Kain]

Super Paper Mario was a terrible game. I dare you to try and prove me wrong.

Just because Super Paper Mario's gameplay sucked ass and consisted of mindless fetch task after mindless fetch task with simple masters and surprisingly uninspired enemies doesn't mean... what was the question again?

Presentation really pulled SPM's scores up higher than it should have whenever they used so little of what they created for themselves.

[Spike]

Yeah, I rented SPM and thought it was too boring to finish. I got sick of "Go get this!" and "Go find him!". It would have been a hell of a lot better if they ditched the story and just let me enjoy the levels. But that's not the point on DWs post. He's saying that a professional review is STRONGLY based on what the people want to hear, so a crappy Mario game has about double the score of a good Sonic game.

[VectorSatyr]

So... people want to hear that Mario is god and Sonic sucks ass? ...

[Aerosol]

uh....pretty much.

[Spike]

So... people want to hear that Mario is god and Sonic sucks ass? ...

Welcome to planet earth.

[Pheonix Gamma]

Exceeeeeept...people want Sonic games to be good again...

and Sonic Rush and SRA received pretty good reviews...

I won't deny that reviewers pander (why the blazes do people give a rats ass when Famitsu gives a game a 35 when the score is just based on how much ad space the company bought in the magazine and the rating on the Most Wanted List?) but I seriously doubt reviewers or publications are out to get a franchise that people want to come back.

Once again, try before you buy. Don't let Joe Schmoe from Game Review Mag Site decide what's good and slap some silly number on it.

[DimensionWarped]

@Aerosol

Puuuuh-retty much!

And yes Seraphim, Paper Mario is fuckin' tight as hell. Its a shame Intelligent Systems isn't as talented or at least experienced at platformers as they are at RPGs and Strategy titles.

And PG, opinions are opinions, but I wasn't pointing out opinions. Super Paper Mario misses the mark in so many ways that are just forgiven... It takes the poorest aspects of both genres and mixes them together. On one end, you have the monotony and grind of RPGs. On the other, you have the lack of variability and sense of growth that you get out of a platformer. It should have been the opposite. The game should have been something that featured the action packed nature of a real Mario game (which it didn't. Reviewers CLAIM it did, but people who aren't total fucking morons should realize it didn't. The greatest platforming in all of Super Paper Mario didn't even approach the worst of the platforming in Super Mario World. Its that bad) and combined it fluidly with the sense of personal growth and personality that you provide for characters with an RPG game. Where is the sense of satisfaction that comes through leveling up only to find "oh, I got five more HP. That will make the game easier without adding any substance."

The other Paper Mario games are genius in their growth. You can choose if you want to completely forsake health and longevity in order to increase your abilities... and I almost exclusively would opt to. I knew I could make each play through have its own unique sense of style... whether I wanted to simply out-live my opponent (HP emphasis), out-damage him (FP emphasis), or have every possible counter and be as generally adaptive as possible (BP emphasis). It was an absolute blast to play through and play through it at least once or twice more simply because of the sense of growth.

Now, thats not to say I wouldn't like to see a sequel where they actually do it right... First step I'd say would be to get rid of the horridly bogus Flip 3D nonsense. All that ever did was waste everyone's time. But most importantly, they should emphasize the strengths of the Paper Mario series (which they got the one that pocketed the reviewers right... the humor) while at the same time picking up what makes the platformer genre so damn compelling to people like us.

Oh, and one more thing, would it kill Nintendo to start offering difficulties in some of these Wii games that appeal to people who aren't 6? I mean seriously... How damn hard is it to up some hit points and add some extra damage onto attacks? Not very. I mean jeez, difficulty options have been around forever.

@PG: They got in the mid 8-s range... in spite of the reviewers claiming it had been their best experience with Sonic games ever. They seem to forget that there was ever a time where Sonic had more solid action than Mario titles and the main factor that kept them from toppling the giant was length. But that aside, its not that they didn't get spectacular reviews which bothers me, its that in spite of being superior games, Super Paper Mario is seen as the Cat's Meow when its a dud simply because of preconceptions. It came from a series which was historically so awesome it knocked people's socks off and so they didn't really care about how much of a step backwards it was. They took their retro smarm and their cute jokes and they slapped the stamp of a good game on it. Thats not how reviewing should work.

What a long rant that turned out to be.

[Pheonix Gamma]

And PG, opinions are opinions, but I wasn't pointing out opinions.

Let me count the ways...

Super Paper Mario misses the mark in so many ways that are just forgiven... It takes the poorest aspects of both genres and mixes them together. On one end, you have the monotony and grind of RPGs.

Freeze frame. Grind? I hope you don't mean grinding, because if you need to grind in SPM...

Back to bolding the opinions...

On the other, you have the lack of variability and sense of growth that you get out of a platformer. It should have been the opposite. The game should have been something that featured the action packed nature of a real Mario game (which it didn't. Reviewers CLAIM it did, but people who aren't total fucking morons should realize it didn't. (That's a proof surrogate, kids!) The greatest platforming in all of Super Paper Mario didn't even approach the worst of the platforming in Super Mario World. Its that bad) and combined it fluidly with the sense of personal growth and personality that you provide for characters with an RPG game. Where is the sense of satisfaction that comes through leveling up only to find "oh, I got five more HP. That will make the game easier without adding any substance."

I won't touch the rest of the post, since it's almost entirely opinionated, but you get the gist. Opinions, opinions, opinions. One person's trash, another's treasure, etc. etc. etc.

Oh, and one more thing, would it kill Nintendo to start offering difficulties in some of these Wii games that appeal to people who aren't 6? I mean seriously... How damn hard is it to up some hit points and add some extra damage onto attacks? Not very. I mean jeez, difficulty options have been around forever.

Now we're talkin'.

EDIT: Oh lookie, post was edited...

::reads last paragraph::

Ok, but SPM only got an 85% on Gamerankings. And the Rush games got in the 80% range. But look at it this way: different reviewers, different standards. A 10 for one may be an 11 for another. Or, they just liked SPM more.

Just don't complain when the next Sonic scores lower than Galaxy. Please?

[Ligar]

Does SEGA ever sit down and say "Okay people, what did we do wrong with this game?" Or do they just pull games out their ass and just say "Enjoy!"

[Spike]

Does SEGA ever sit down and say "Okay people, what did we do wrong with this game?" Or do they just pull games out their ass and just say "Enjoy!"

...Way to be totally off topic.

[DimensionWarped]

If you don't call going through the pit of 100 trials... twice... grinding what the hell do you call grinding? Generally speaking, I'd say that if you have to wander around hunting for an item you missed because of an obscure flip-3D moment, that you might as well have a grind.

The point is, there is a long dull-space without much action to speak of that you do not because it is fun, but because it is simply necessary to advance the game. I classify that as a grind.

Also PG, if you think that Super Paper Mario's design choices being poor is just an opinion, I really don't know how much hope I have for your own designs.

[Ligar]

...Way to be totally off topic.

Well I'm sorry for not making a SPM comment

[Pheonix Gamma]

If you don't call going through the pit of 100 trials... twice... grinding what the hell do you call grinding? Generally speaking, I'd say that if you have to wander around hunting for an item you missed because of an obscure flip-3D moment, that you might as well have a grind.

Optional quest is optional.

Also PG, if you think that Super Paper Mario's design choices being poor is just an opinion, I really don't know how much hope I have for your own designs.

HA! Joke's on you, my good man! Everyone here knows I haven't made a fangame!

And "this is bad" is opinion. Vanilla Ice Cream is bad is an opinion. Pepsi is bad is an opinion. SPM is bad is also an opinion. I don't think I can make it much more clearer than that.

So all of that "The gameplay sucks" should be rephrased as "I didn't enjoy the gameplay, and I don't think it works well, because..."

[Kain]

It had an alright story, albeit long-winded. However, the RPG elements were just surface-value to make things that were already easy even easier. It was a horrible idea to get rid of the badge system in favor of absolutely nothing. And the platformer elements were spread thin, usually serving to get you from one point A to point B. The only slight challenge was getting past enemies, a few of which required some interesting action to get past, but this action is always interrupted by having to switch to Mario or every 30 seconds to flip.

Assigning a number to a game is such an arbitrary and pointless practice for anyone even half-way interested in games. SPM was a nice filler game for the empty period between launch titles and the first non-port great game for the new console. Perhaps why reviewers were so quick to give it a passing grade. I just hope the next Paper Mario's better.

[Spike]

Well I'm sorry for not making a SPM comment

Your question wasn't related to the topic, either.

[Kain]

Moral of the story: there's justification in numbers?

[DimensionWarped]

And "this is bad" is opinion. Vanilla Ice Cream is bad is an opinion. Pepsi is bad is an opinion. SPM is bad is also an opinion. I don't think I can make it much more clearer than that.

No, I don't quite think you get it. Saying ice cream is bad is dumb. Ice cream appeals to some and doesn't appeal to others because of physical differences in the body. Video games on the other hand are completely mental. They don't rely on variable sensors, they rely on human thought and emotion. There are good and bad design choices that can be made that really can only be good or bad. There are no two ways about it. It isn't opinion to say that a lack of variety is bad for a game. It isn't opinion to say that a lack of action is bad for a platform game. It isn't opinion to say that fetch quests remove from a game's value and it also isn't opinion to say that a game without any redeeming qualities to speak of gameplay wise in a mess of otherwise shoddy design principles is a bad game. Sure, you can argue all day long that its a fun story, but as a game it simply isn't good.

You can only take "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" so far. There comes a point where you have to realize that quality is a value that can be measured to at least some major extent.

[TRD]

Wow, from Sonic playing tennis, to Super paper Mario sucks discussion.

Amazing.

[Midiman]

Back on topic gong.

[Pheonix Gamma]

No, I don't quite think you get it. Saying ice cream is bad is dumb. Ice cream appeals to some and doesn't appeal to others because of physical differences in the body. Video games on the other hand are completely mental.

Fair enough. Let me use another example. "Gigli is a good movie" would be an opinion.

They don't rely on variable sensors, they rely on human thought and emotion.

Which vary from person to person. That's opinion. But you're arguing that SPM being bad is fact, so...the argument doesn't hold water.

There are good and bad design choices that can be made that really can only be good or bad. There are no two ways about it. It isn't opinion to say that a lack of variety is bad for a game.

Some people might not want variety. I don't want to play as Knuckles and hunt shit, or Robotnik and shoot crap. Let me play as Sonic and run for 40 levels.

It isn't opinion to say that a lack of action is bad for a platform game.

Puzzle platformers.

It isn't opinion to say that fetch quests remove from a game's value

I personally hate them, but since 90% of MMO missions are fetch quests, and WoW has a million kajillion subscribers, there's got to be someone who, at least, doesn't MIND.

and it also isn't opinion to say that a game without any redeeming qualities to speak of gameplay wise in a mess of otherwise shoddy design principles is a bad game.

In whose opinion? Some people are tits people, some people are ass people. What I may like in a woman, you might loathe.

Sure, you can argue all day long that its a fun story, but as a game it simply isn't good.

Unless the game is all about the story. See: text adventure games. Story is a part of a game, and different games emphasize different parts to different degrees. I like this one RPG for its story and characters, but the gameplay isn't something I'd gush over. However, the story really grabbed me and had me hooked, and I didn't think the gameplay was UNfun, but passable, so as a whole, I thought the game was a really fun experience that grabbed me, and maybe I'd list it as a personal favorite.

You can only take "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" so far. There comes a point where you have to realize that quality is a value that can be measured to at least some major extent.

Example plz.

Wow, from Sonic playing tennis, to Super paper Mario sucks discussion.

Amazing.

Red herrings will do that.

[Ligar]

@Spike: I was speaking about SEGA in general in a thread about a SEGA game. That is called throwing your two cents in. But it will make you feel better maybe I should have said:

"Sonic's playing Tennis now? Well maybe this occurance was stirred up cause he's in a game with Mario doing various sporting events. Maybe Sonic wants a piece of the sports game pie now, eh?"