Month 1 - Banter over rain concepts

[DimensionWarped]

To me, that's like saying it's better to have the same 5 enemies recycled throughout every stage and simply make them more elaborate instead of having enemies unique to every stage. Or the same 5 gimmicks. Or take Kirby. If there were only 3 copy abilities in Kirby and they were all had a bunch of unique aspects to them, people still wouldn't prefer that to Kirby Superstar. And this isn't saying to up the number to 10, and it isn't saying to make it a rain shield specifically. Obviously anything that could make you not get slowed down by stormy weather could be used for other situations as well. Mostly non-rain related. Also, ultimately making a key open four locks doesn't make it something other than lock and key.

But think about it though, people generally prefer SMB3 to the others, even Super Mario World which is pretty much the superior game. Why? I'd say it has to do a lot with the extra options that the player has. And a lot of those options are useless 90% of the time (here's looking at you frog suit) or simply extensions of an already existing one (P-Wing/Tanuki Suit). Yet you'll never see anyone chastising SMB3 for being in any way 'diluted'.

As for labeling other people's points, I'm pretty sure you had already done that with the whole statement of diluting the game. Also, the label I was using was purist. Excessive was simply a modifier.

[Carl Winslow]

This would make sense if you were talking about it in the sense that it was a hugely important thing to have as a separate tool for the player to use. As a simple addition to an item? sounds pointless to even argue this. being able to do more doesn't necessarily make the player happier.

also, the Tanuki suit's simple addition is such a huge change because it has the possibility to completely negate a difficult section of a level. if the effect were lessened at all it would become a useless item in the eye of the player. Saying it's a minor change is a bit hap-hazard.

and the P Wing? I get the feeling they could have made that an extendable item of the raccoon leaf, like with the fire flower to big Mario. This more than likely was decided against it for the same reason as above. It also creates a huge change in gameplay and can negate major obstacles, even more so than the tanuki suit's limited invincibility.

saying that adding a water-centric element to an already existing water-centric player device, that affects a quirk to the specific area's design that is about water no less, is a bad idea? that is just mind-boggling.

[DimensionWarped]

Last I checked, all the Tanuki suit gives you over the leaf is the ability to turn into a stone statue. It doesn't let you 'negate' anything. Unless by negate you mean sit on a thwomp. It certainly doesn't help you to skip anything in a level.

And no one said that adding something to the water shield is a bad idea, what I'm saying is that it isn't a bad idea to have more than the 3 existing shields from Sonic 3 in a game (or just plain replacing them).

That said, it's time to get back on track.

[Smidge204]

Well if we're talking about what functions rain could have in a level, maybe we can start with what rain actually does?

Including what others have mentioned:

1) Makes things wet and slippery

2) Fills cavities with water

3) Reduces visibility

4) Damages certain item/materials that shouldn't get wet

Like if we run with the "fill" mechanic, maybe dynamic Labyrinth Zone style rising water and slides would become active if rain were sufficiently heavy for sufficient lengths of time.

Mud puddles that act similar to the oil pits in Marble Garden Zone.

Objects that are only interactive when it's raining or dry, such as a stone stuck in the dirt that becomes pushable when it's all muddy, or platforms that only collapse when it's raining. Maybe walls you can only break through when it rains, or other paths get blocked by floodwaters.

Are we talking about rain as a fixed/scheduled level element, or a semi-random occurrence throughout the game? Adding dynamic weather patterns to the game that are persistent throughout would certainly be novel... in the Sonic series at least. Maybe weather patterns are determined by an algorithm that detects time and date of the player's machine. Some days it'll be raining, others not. Replay value!

also, the Tanuki suit's simple addition is such a huge change because it has the possibility to completely negate a difficult section of a level.

It would be the responsibility of the level designer to either make sure the Tanuki suit is unavailable at a point where it would negate an important challenge, or to make having the Tanuki suit at that point at least as challenging as it would be to get through without it.

A game-breaking object/mechanic is only a problem if you can actually use it in a situation that would break the game.

=Smidge=

[DimensionWarped]

Are we talking about rain as a fixed/scheduled level element, or a semi-random occurrence throughout the game? Adding dynamic weather patterns to the game that are persistent throughout would certainly be novel... in the Sonic series at least. Maybe weather patterns are determined by an algorithm that detects time and date of the player's machine. Some days it'll be raining, others not. Replay value!

Whether the topic applies to a game, a level, or whatever is entirely free-form. And I think there actually have been a couple games that retrieve the weather statistics for the player's region using some online service... that could be novel too.

[Dan]

Hey, the risk of diluting the game is the concern I raised for discussion. That's not sticking a label on someone's comments.

Adding powerups and adding enemies aren't the same, but I agree about suits in Mario. There's still a difference with shields that I see, a difference connected to their value. To debate more would be to go further off topic so I'll leave it. But I'm not saying new tools are definite negative, just that adding them is not risk-free. The rain plus water shield suggestion reminded me of that risk.

I think NiGHTS Journey of Dreams is a game that fetches local real-life weather patterns, but I haven't played it to be sure.

Good ideas by Smidge there. Great reasons for the player to actually want to backtrack through a zone. That, or hustle to get to places before the rain clears up. The crumbles-when-wet ground is like 3 perks in one - open new paths, remove old paths, and simply add to the rainy feel in a tangible way. I suppose once the player knows everything the interest in backtracking would stop, but with some good design you could keep that going for a great many playthroughs.

Some water-surface related ideas:

- Water running isn't possible on choppy water. Not a huge idea, but you could have undercover areas of still water where water running is almost a staple, but then if something breaks a portion of the ceiling, the rain falling through will break up the surface and kill the ability to run past that point. Jump or sink, or maybe keep running but with your speed being drained, and maybe you'll make it across before you start to sink.

- Choppy water can mess up the directions of floating platforms. A few rafts that were previously providing a stable yet short platform across one area now start drifting further from their original positions. The more erratic & random the drifting looks the better. If you imagine a zone with a long, accessible waterline (a bit like Aquatic Ruin), the entire waterline could become a path that didn't exist before. With enough drifting the many rafts allow the player to leap between each one for quite some distance, either setting up some speed run options (though there's the problem of waiting for this to happen), or providing access to areas that branch off into more secrets.

- Floating platforms' stability affected by rain. Rafts again but a separate idea; if a raft is being rained on it wobbles around a bit. The heavier the rain, the more it wobbles, the more the player has to correct, the more it wobbles still. Just a small idea for a challenge.

- When underwater, the noise of the raindrops landing on the surface gets louder as you approach the surface, until the sound is drowning out almost everything else. It's more for show than play. It would be a nifty effect at least to hear the sudden change in ambient noise as the character breaks through the surface then falls underwater again.

[Epon]

I know this may be a little off topic on "rain", but it may go hand-in-hand with what you all are saying. Instead of introducing a "rain shield", which, IMHO, is retarded, you can introduce a "wind shield" as mentioned a few times. Instead of it being bloat and worthless and only usable in certain levels, here's how it can be beneficial in all levels:

Alright so... assuming the dev has already introduced a "Wind Shield" into the game that has leaves blowing around or whatever visual they want:

-In normal situations, it can deflect tangible, material projectiles (in other words, not lasers or energy weapons)

-In normal situations, it can deter air-enemies from getting to close... maybe make them turn around quickly and dipset.

-In a rainy situation, it can "blow away" the raindrops on screen (circular outwards of character) to improve visibility. It would also include the above "normal condition" actions I listed.

-In a rainy situation, it can improve traction on wet ground. I don't think Sonic will break too well when the grounds wet; perhaps this will make the game physics return the "coefficient of friction" back to normal? (Smidge, don't lambaste me for using the incorrect term; I don't want a lesson in fluid dynamics )

-In underwater situations, it can either be ineffective ("blows out" like the fire and lightning shield) or it can act similar to above water, but less effectively (cut down on radius of protection, blow water enemies away, knock away physical weapons, etc)

-In space/final level situations, it is worthless because there is no air. Duh.

Just some food for thought. I'm open for critique.

[DimensionWarped]

'Rain' shield in this case just refers to whatever mechanism is used to diffuse the rain. I don't think the idea was ever just to specifically make something that has only the one function of making you be able to move normally in rainy weather. So really a wind shield so to speak is basically the same thing. It's just describing a more specific design rather than a more abstract one.

[Dan]

Raining rings.

Raining badniks, powerups... can we do anything with that?

[Ironrind]

That could be interesting. I remember in Super Mario Bros, there were bonus stages that were accessible by breaking a box, and then climbing the vine up into the clouds. Maybe raining rings could be used in a bonus stage of some sort. If used in a rainy level, it would make some sort of sense, I suppose. Maybe you could throw in a rainbow to go with the gold rings and other 'treasures'.

[Slow_Motion]

Hmm a rainbow would be cool after the rain and horid lighting. Heres an idea in the rainbow and sunlight do the flowers that might come out of the badnicks like sonic cd style turn into rings? That would be helpful. Heh find a bot of rings and an emerald bonus at the end of the rainbow.

[Ironrind]

If the rain were cycled on and off, you could set the flowers to bloom when the sun comes out. The flowers could be used as platforms to otherwise inaccessible areas. Other plants could grow taller and grow more leaves to climb. A flower could blossom that holds an item box inside. A rainbow could be ran across like a bridge. When the rain starts again, the flowers close back up and the rainbow disappears.

[Scarletdark]

Pro shadowblaze's idea on acid rain is actually a great concept. Rather than just flat out killing you if your in the rain it could slowly drain your rings just like super form does. This would be cool in a metropolis like level. There could be sheilds to protect the player from acid rain and such.

[DimensionWarped]

If you are talking about an industrial setting, you could have like sprinklers or something spraying acid that sticks to the player continually sapping rings. you could also have small pools of water which could clean it off and give off a neat bubbling effect if you are in fact covered in acid when you enter just to make the function obvious to the player.