Linking fangame developing to future careers

[spiderbyte]

I have been giving it a lot of heavy thought, as i have been looking at jobs for programming, both for software/games and web development. I, currently, am using Python for the engine's core language (Sonic Revolution) and using Blender to aid the rendering and what not. After looking at jobs, i've seen NO Game development jobs that use Python as it's core language. This to me, is a big problem.

The only languages i've developed a game in is Game Maker, MMF2, Dark Basic, Dark Basic Professional, and Blender. Blender has been my closest bet on using a 'real' language on developing games because of the fact that Python is in fact, a real language, although it's a script language, that is usually never compiled into binaries such as C, C++, C#, etc. Python is used mostly for small tasks in a game, much like XML or LUA is, but is almost never used mainly in the professional gaming industry. Python is mostly used for server coding. I feel that, I, my team, should be using these development years as something more useful than just fame (looking at you Jeztac), and all these other qualities. I think that we should be doing this to gain knowledge for our future (and fun:P)

I've been looking at what languages are widely used in the 'real world' and it seems to be a mixture of C, C++, C#, Ruby, Java, and a lot of those require some sub Scripting language such as XML or Lua. I have not looked into this too much, but i want to know, what is going to be worth my time and my teams time, stuffing what knowledge into our heads? I know all of this is very useful but, i want to start with a majority priority. I'm tired of being aided with super simple syntaxes where you know not what it really means. People all around these game dev communities (Game Maker Community, The Game Creators, etc) are being aided in a way that probably wont help you too much.

I currently know a good grip of C++ up to console programming, as i never really got into OpenGL or using Bullet Physics. I also use to work on using C++ and Assembly combined to develop my own Boot Loader/Kernel/OS (16bit realmode) But lost some interest as it isn't totally what I am in to. Anyhow, I want some discussions, opinions, and even 'facts from people who are professionals'.

edit: I forgot to mention that Sonic Revolution will not be changing the engine, it will remain built under Blender using Python. This is referring to our next project, 'non fangame' related, possibly targeting consoles. probably not.

[Kain]

Going on a third-hand mixture of previous discussions on this forum, articles and webpages written by industry professionals, some bit from a few C.S. teachers, and a little bit of partially-cynical "sense."

It really depends on what position you wanted to get into and in what type of company. If you were looking for a designing position, then it wouldn't matter WHAT very very extremely super high-level language you used to implement your concepts as long as you were making good games. But development positions are probably few and far between and most companies would probably look for someone with writing and/or business experience. Not to mention (and I might be a little skeptical about this), for a top-level design position (instead of a more specific kind of design position) it's hard to imagine that designs based on other people's copyrighted designs are going to be all that appealing.

If you're looking for a programming position, you probably simply aren't getting in without a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or such. They're surely willing to train competent programmers (and being a competent programmer is fairly language-independent, though that's partially because of the vast amount of similarities between similar-level languages) in OpenGL/DirectX/whatever, but experience in the engine they will be working on would doubtlessly look mighty good on your resume.

Other positions like graphics design require some degree of programming knowledge, but experience like this would probably look fairly good in a portfolio. That's the extent of my knowledge on this.

More to the point regarding the question, fangame experience probably won't be a stand-alone stepping stone into the game industry, but you're still making games, encountering logical, graphical, and design problems and solution, and it's all relevant experience.

Edit: also, meeting a schedule and/or getting something done, especially in multi-person projects, is good experience for just about any job.

[spiderbyte]

Thanks i understand what you mean. I WANT to be more of the designer, but I'm pretty sure you need at least 3 years of working as a programmer before you can get a job like that. I honestly wouldn't mind being just a programmer though, as it's what I love doing. As far as the "They don't like fangames" thing, this is why, after Sonic Revolution, I will no longer be working on Fangames, and only unique ideas as i can and have came up with many great ideas, but never put them to use. Thanks for the response! I plan to dip into both OpenGL and hopefully (i don't know much about DirectX10, if it cost money) work with that also.

I still have many questions...what is a widely used language? I'm still searching around, and i notice C#, and C++ a lot.

Hopefully i can find a relatively Small or Independent development company hiring n00bs (by noob, i mean not requiring college knowledge) I could get a job now (aka Best Buy or something) but i would need a work permit...wait...ill be 16 in less than a month, so i won't. I would also love to work on programming early and even better, work remotely but that's just my little fantasy.

[GSF]

More to the point regarding the question, fangame experience probably won't be a stand-alone stepping stone into the game industry, but you're still making games, encountering logical, graphical, and design problems and solution, and it's all relevant experience.

Yeah, that's true. Well, a fangame can't be compared to a full commercial game, but it is an introduction to the world of programming. Codes and conditions in GM and MMF2, respectively, are the 'first steps' of the experience, sort of.

And, these ways of working out stuff are great in order to learn programming basics. With these first steps, someone can learn the basic implementation of variables, physics, debugging, et cetera.

Hah, and there is people that go around saying that gaming doesn't teach you anything. What a big fat lie.

As for a widely used language, spiderbyte, C++ and C# are indeed very popular and flexible. I don't know much about these, but they're being used a lot.

[VectorSatyr]

If you are serious about getting a career in the computer game industry, you must remember to view the game industry as a business first. You are a human resource, and there are many more like you. The more useful you are to your specific employer, the more likely they hire you.

There are many personal qualities that will help you stand out as a valuable employee: enthusiasm for programming (or at least, a strong self-motivation), willingness to learn, expertise in the most commonly-used technology, excellent written and verbal communication skills, etc. Actually, these apply to almost any job in the industry.

For programmers, It's crucial to know the theory behind most programming and scripting languages (so you'll know how to think critically, adapt, and apply methodologies), and that's what a B.S. in Computer Science will give you. The degree itself also shows your ability to get things done, even when you're forced to do something you don't want to do.

There's so much more to add, but you'll become more interested if you investigate these things for yourself.

[spiderbyte]

Thanks Gsoft, but companies would rather choose a well experienced C++ programmer than a Well experienced GM programmer that could easily learn C++ but has not fully.

AeroGP Thanks,

After reading your first paragraph, this is exactly how i feel. I don't want to be that guy that they MIGHT hire if Joe Shmoe is getting that other job. I want to be that Joe Shmoe.

Ive read almost everything you stated in your other paragraphs...and i think it describes me pretty well (besides the knowledge of a guru in C++/C# programming)

When it comes to doing something forcefully that i dont wanna do...trust me, if it gets me to where i want, i'll want to do it.

[Serephim]

From what ive been observing, if you want a solid "Designer" position, i dont really think it matters what programming language you use (C++ , Clickteam Products, Game maker) as long as you can produce what you visualize, and what you visualize is something genuine.

However, when it comes to making money off of said visualization, I think its beneficial to have it in a language companies can actually use. I dont know shit about C++, but i've been using clickteam products since (literately) elementary school. There are people who can make some pretty seriously awesome shit using MMF2. Hell, just look at Sonic Worlds.

It all depends on how good you are at what you do.

Personally, Im on my final fangame project i will most likely ever do, but i have to admit that SFGHQ and Sonic Fangaming in general yields some pretty formidable experience. Sonic the Hedeghog didn't have the simplest of movement engines and design patterns, and it has plenty of applications of programming and physics to it. If i can successfully create my own original game with MMF2, hopefully it would be able to attract enough attention for me to use it on a resume.

However, i dont know how these things work exactly, so im not sure. But i do know that when it comes to being a good designer, i would believe the most important traits would be the ability to turn whatever you work on into something that stands out in more than one linear aspect, knows how to manage resources, and attracts money . If you're like that, then I'd say your on the right track.

[GSF]

Sereph: Agree with what you said. It's true.

No matter how simplistic, or outdated the code is, what really matters is what you DO with it.

As long as you believe that your knowledge will be useful, you will be able to do something.

It all depends on how good you are at what you do.

QFT.

[spiderbyte]

Sereph....there is a couple of things i disagree with you on. If you are the designer for say....an activision project... Im sure if you said...HEY! Lets make this game in MMF2! I am pretty sure they will look at you in a very weird way. I know how people can make amazing things with it but i don't think it's business suited. You get me?

GonzaSoft: That isnt really true either. They (Producers) and Company CEOs, and what not, they want CLEAN and Efficient code. Plus, you want to target a wide variaty of Computer Specs so...

Why pay someone who is going to program in a craptastic language when you have someone who can program in a better language, for the same quality (most likely better) and most likely the same price

[VectorSatyr]

GonzaSoft: That isnt really true either. They (Producers) and Company CEOs, and what not, they want CLEAN and Efficient code. Plus, you want to target a wide variaty of Computer Specs so...

Why pay someone who is going to program in a craptastic language when you have someone who can program in a better language, for the same quality (most likely better) and most likely the same price?

That's... a bit off.

As long as you can get the job done and do it well, you'll be alright - not great, but alright. It shouldn't matter what you use, as long as you're also competent at what they want you to use, or can learn it really quickly after they hire you.

Furthermore, they'll be more interested in having you on their team if you have a strong grasp of the game development process. This is supposed to be represented by a finished game on your resume (and sometimes, the accompanying design document), which they'll inevitably ask you about, and it doesn't matter what you made it in or even what it's about as long as it demonstrates that you know what it takes to make a game from a business sense.

But that's just the thing: if you didn't actually learn anything from having completed a game, you won't be very valuable to your employer.

That said, a game made in Game Maker or MMF is only slightly less as a resume builder than a game made in C++/C or a mod, so long as it's done and you actually gained great experience from it. Remember: they will ask you about it. They're expecting responses such as "making this game taught me how to design my code before I implemented it, so I could pace myself..."

[GSF]

Well, you are right in some ways Spiderbyte.

Of course that you can't compare C++ to 20 year-old languages, but the key to success is effectiveness, not the popularity of the code.

Just as an example, C++ is quite popular, but isn't the most amazing language around. It's like Windows, it's the most used OS despite all of its bugs and stuff. Or Internet Explorer, it's widely used due to the integration, even with all of its crappy functions.

Not business suited? Well, a fangame, obviously not. But you can make tons of commercial games & apps with MMF2, for example check out the FusionDevelopers site. Text processors, file utilities, media players...

Like Sereph said, what matters is how good you are. Making a nice, light app in MMF2 or GM is a lot better than a cheapo program made by a C# newbie, riddled with bugs. People does not look at the innards of the programs, they look at the effectiveness and features. For example in utility programs, people look at the interface, features, limitations, et cetera. It's not relevant if it's VB, C, or whatever.

And there is NO craptastic language. Every programming method can do something. Now, there are craptastic coders, yep.

COBOL, RPG, all these old languages can still work. No matter how outdated they are.

[VectorSatyr]

People does not look at the innards of the programs, they look at the effectiveness and features.

No, actually they look at the competency of the creator - how they think and behave from a business standpoint, and what their game says about these things. But you're right, in that they don't usually care what it's made with unless they're bigots, particularly.

[Kain]

Sereph....there is a couple of things i disagree with you on. If you are the designer for say....an activision project... Im sure if you said...HEY! Lets make this game in MMF2! I am pretty sure they will look at you in a very weird way. I know how people can make amazing things with it but i don't think it's business suited. You get me?

But certain concepts are code-independent. Take the little interview with Hirokazu Yasuhara where he mentioned something along the lines of "I pitch the programmers an idea for a certain gimmick and sometimes they tell me that it'd be too program." Obviously he had very limited involvement in the coding and implementation and there are obviously many other positions which are only concerned with the act of implementation in that they are working with people who will have to implement their ideas. If you demonstrate design experience on a platform, even if it's too amateur tech for serious commercial use, then it's still real design experience. Though I have heard of a slight difference in Japanese and American game development where in America, designers are more likely to be former programmer and/or have significant programming backgrounds.

GonzaSoft: That isnt really true either. They (Producers) and Company CEOs, and what not, they want CLEAN and Efficient code. Plus, you want to target a wide variaty of Computer Specs so...

Depends on the project, really. If you're working in a position that's integrated with other people, and if you're working in a position which is likely to be transitioned from person to person over time, then they definitely want your code to be readable. Usually, though, they'll have certain guidelines which you have to follow in terms of commenting and organization of linebreaks, variable naming, tabbing, etc. For gaming, efficient code is important in that if it is made too inefficient then it will not run at adequate FPS, but above all companies want the code to get done and done per the specs.

Why pay someone who is going to program in a craptastic language when you have someone who can program in a better language, for the same quality (most likely better) and most likely the same price

It's unrealistic to think that any company is going to give their employees a choice in what language they use in all but the most inconsequential and/or secondary of tasks. Like I said, being a good programmer is fairly language-independent and a company can teach a good programmer any programming language in a matter of days or weeks. Although, at the same time there is a hierarchy of languages. In that, for example, they will not be likely to hire someone with no experience with object-oriented language to code a project being made in Java no matter how well a you can program in BASIC. And more on the issue, if a person only has experience dealing in languages where little to no memory management and infrastructure control is necessary (such as Game Maker, and probably a lot of the others), then they probably won't hire you as a serious programmer.

[spiderbyte]

I was referring to using languages like GML and MMF2 when you ARE in the professional position, not when you are building your own personnal rep.

[VectorSatyr]

When you are in the position, you program with whatever tools they give you. You don't get a choice when you're not the lead programmer.

[Kain]

I was referring to using languages like GML and MMF2 when you ARE in the professional position, not when you are building your own personnal rep.

Well I'm pretty sure you were replying to someone who wasn't. The game designer, after all, is not the one to choose the language a game's being made in. And if he were, then he wouldn't choose something just because he used it, because he won't be involved in the implementation in that way. We had this discussion back when Noitu Love 2 came rolling in having been made in MMF2, I think. Despite being a game made in an engine which we associate as being a crap engine because we're amateurs and look around seeing a bunch of people far worse even than us using it, it's an amazing game and is able to be sold commercially. In addition to being wonderful for his design portfolio if he plans on proceeding in the game industry. Sure, it won't run on the kind of computers that a game of that technological sophistication (or lack thereof) should be able to run on, but that's about the extent to which the game being made in MMF limits it.

[ssbfalcon]

Just to put this out there...

XNA is probably a great tool to poke around with if you do want to make something more substantial using a traditonal style programming language that may appear a tad more impressive on a portfolio of sorts...

It's an intermediate step between say, Blender and python and a C++/ASM engine... Not to mention you can actually run your creations on an Xbox 360 and publish games to Live Arcade...

Publishing costs a tiny bit, but developing for Windows PC is free...

___________

But in any event, if you've been doing fangaming for a while, programming ends up being easier for you. Especially in the case of MMF and it's poor... handling of many things, you try to use whatever optimization techniques you can, such as dynamic loading of objects, to the core game logic by ensuring that you do things more efficently (since MMF doesn't know what a GPU is... but construct does)...

Anyway, you'll find that you'll have a better starting point when you go to make games in these 'superior' languages because you learned to think logically, which is 95% of programming. The rest, a monkey can do...

Do remember, you don't have to have the most impressive showing if you want a good portfolio. Finished projects are always nice, and showing off a variety of solved problems are great as well... Since it's not about the problems you already solved, it's about what you'll be able to solve for the employer, and you'll find that they often may just choose a person with an excellent thinking and logic ability, over a person who shows a seemingly awesome resume/portfolio, but can't demonstrate that ability at the interview...

And that last bit is my advice from personal experience, but should apply to any tech related field...

[spiderbyte]

Sorry about my reply that made no sense...You guys posted too fast and it was ment for a further up post.

I KNOW the programmer doesnt choose the language, i was saying, as a smart business owner....would you rather have your million dollar game be made in C++ or MMF (When you KNOW you can find 'gurus' in both areas)

And i know there have been many commercial apps and crap made in MMF and GM, but those are most of the time, from Indie Developers or small businesses.

ssbfalcon: Thanks for that reply, I have definently heard of XNA, read about it, and even seen games in it. The sad thing is that i do not own a xbox(360) console. But you said you can develop under windows using XNA too right? If so, this is great! XNA should be a major showoff in my future portfolio

[Kain]

I KNOW the programmer doesnt choose the language, i was saying, as a smart business owner....would you rather have your million dollar game be made in C++ or MMF (When you KNOW you can find 'gurus' in both areas)

That's a complete straw man argument. The issue in question is whether or not an MMF-developed game is good material for getting into a video game position (and, consequently, whether it is good experience for working in a video game position). Sereph and I and others are making the case that design- and to a lesser extent, logic- is independent of actual engine used. And thus that developers would look at experience related to MMF as relevant despite the fact that they themselves would never consider using that engine. For a technical position this might not hold too much weight (provided that it's your only experience in programming), but it's not like it's make-believe work which professionals will look down on as if the scribblings of children (lol, straw man for me this time).

[DimensionWarped]

Obviously no one is ever going to go straight from MMF to a professional career as a programmer without anything in between. I doubt anyone would even suggest such a thing. But it's fine for teaching concepts if you are at the higher levels of its use and concepts are generally universal.

[DragonXVI]

Gonna hop into this discussion since it's a similar route of progression I took (Making fangames in TGF -> Going to Uni to study how to really program -> Getting job in industry)

First thing's first, as far as I know nobody in the games industry uses GM or MMF to make commercial games (Most people here haven't even heard of it). There's plenty of indie teams that use it to produce commercial games (Hateful Chris sprints to mind... whatever happened to those guys? I also believe one of the Knytt games was done in MMF)

Secondly, Python *is* used, but it will depend on the company and the project and it's usually supported by C++ or C#. It's useful for Designers to know a little bit of scripting (Since it's the bit they modify, rather than going into the whole code) so it's actually a useful skill to be able to write good Python or Lua.

C++, C# (or Java Mobile developers use it) are your three main targets if you want to be a programmer in the industry, with focus on C++ as the most commonly used one for games development. C++ on its own usually isn't enough to land a games programming job, you'll need skills and knowledge in graphics programming (OpenGL, DirectX), Vector Math and other geometry based physics, good Object Orientated Programming skills, debugging skills etc. And anything else relevant to the position you want (Ai Programmers'll need to know all their A*, FSMs, Navigation Meshes etc.)

Designers usually don't need to know much, if any, code at all. They *Do* need to know how to write design documents, requirements, plans etc. And honestly it's one of those vague job descriptions that causes everyone and their mother to produce a book/website telling you "THE 5 TENANTS OF GETTING A GAME DESIGN JOB" etc. Avoid any University offering a course in Game Design - Most companies agree they don't offer nearly the right level of skill required - My advice if you're serious is to read lots, learn to produce maps, diagrams, flow charts quickly and efficiently and well documented structure reports on Game Design.

Many companies, if your CV tickles their fancy, issue a test. For programming this'll be a standard bunch of questions that you have to produce or debug code for. Other more design related programming questions may ask how you'd go about writing a solution to a game mechanic. Design tests often ask you to write a Design Document for a mock game idea using a set of parameters ("A game where the player must use X to do Y" etc.) For a QA testing job this is often a combination of an interview and a game debugging session. For the note, a *lot* of people looking to get into the games industry do so by aiming at the QA positions and hoping to "move up the ladder" as it were. QA from most companies is generally given lowest importance and filled with students eager to be in the games industry (Some companies do take it seriously though, and employ skilled workforce) but it's the "Best Way In" most of the time.

Regardless of your choice, check out GameDev and GamaSutra as you go, and don't aim too high (ie. The Big, AAA name companies ) initially - Aim for the little guys first. Everyone has to start somewhere.

[Asuma]

The more you can do, the better your chances at landing a job.

[Serephim]

That was genius Azu

[Epon]

Go to college. For 4 years. Get a BS in Computer Science. Then come back here and tell me that you could have survived the real world with just MMF/GML knowledge alone.

[DiabloHedgehog]

I say never ever use a fan game for a portfolio or netting yourself a job, make games at home for fun and maybe practice in design, but by all means not anything else.

Old topic I know.