Just rambling about poly-models...

[TailsSena]

So, I've been flipping through model files in Blender, looking at others in videos, etc, and I've noticed a few things... These are in no real order.

Mildly interesting things I've found...

- Is it just me, or are the Link models in Ocarina of Time 3D recycled from Melee?

- Tingle in Brawl looks like he was ripped straight from Wind Waker.

- And Shadow's from Shadow the Hedgehog.

- Super Mario 3D Land is almost all recycled from Galaxy 1 and 2.

- Sonic's model in Colors (Wii) looks like the one from HD versions of Unleashed.

- Mario Party 9 appears to use the same Graphics Engine as Galaxy, models and all.

- Sonic Colors on the DS was quite obviously built from Rush/Rush Adventure.

- Most of the Brawl models for characters seen in Melee weren't changed, just re-textured.

- The Arwing and Landmaster in Brawl look just like the ones in Assault.

- I think Little Mac's Assist Trophy model was re-used in Punch Out Wii.

- Plenty of the Galaxy models where taken from Sunshine, or at least it looks like it.

- Sonic Shuffle's character assets were almost all ripped from Adventure.

- I guess you could say that if it wasn't new to Brawl (Like Ness and Lucas models), it was taken from a prior game and updated.

- While they look like sprites, the characters and many other things in the Paper Mario games are actually just models that abuse the frame-buffer constantly.

- Okay, odd one... Some of the less seen Pokemon models in Brawl don't look much different from those in Stadium... On the N64. (Meowth and Mew show this.)

- Pit's Brawl model wasn't changed much when it was re-used in Uprising.

- Tikal and Big appear to be the only characters whose models were not changed between SA1 and SA2.

Other things I've noted...

- Chrono Cross, even when dissected, doesn't look like a PS1 game at all. This can be attributed to the unique file structure and model format used specifically for that game.

- Most PS2 models are fully compatible with Dissidia 012, assuming the proportions aren't wildly off from the character you're messing with.

- Looking at KH2, you'd think the models where incredibly rounded, but nope... That's just the texture artists fucking with you. Most KH2 models are actually pretty flat, and around 1000 tris.

Aaaand I'm out. Anyone else find anything interesting?

Anyone else actually find this kind of stuff intriguing?

EDIT: Oh yeah... Does anyone know a good poly/tri limit when using 3D objects in MMF2? I'm probably going to experiment with that kind of stuff next.

[BlitznBurst]

Sonic Colours' model has less polygons than Unleashed's.

[TailsSena]

Oh, sorry, I didn't notice somebody replied.

Sonic Colours' model has less polygons than Unleashed's.

Are you sure? To me it looks the same, could just be the lighting engine that's different. Like textures, lighting can make models appear more rounded. Since the HD version of unleashed is next-gen, and the Colors is a Wii game, it would make sense that the lighting in Colors would be inferior. (No, the Wii actually doesn't have a huge problem with drawing poygons... Polygons are the least of the Wii's problems.)

Something else I just found... There's an Egg-Robo model in SA2, but I don't recall it being used anywhere... It's clearly better than the Sonic R model, but not a whole lot... Perhaps it was a debug enemy?

[OverbounD]

It's a well known fact that companies reuse models. Nintendo said as much back when the GCN came out. Sonic 2's sprite is very similar to Sonic 1's sprite and Sonic CD uses Sonic 1's sprites. It's nothing new and happened with sprites too.

[TailsSena]

I know they do that often, I'm just kinda'... Assembling a list?

[Serephim]

Are you sure?

yes sena

I don't see the point in Nintendo NOT reusing the melee models for alot of stuff. The graphical power between Gamecube --> Wii wasn't any sort of significant. In fact one of my favorite things to do with Melee was poke around the trophy viewer because of how ridiculous the jump in detail was from SSB64 to Melee. Of course, that excitement didn't exist with Brawl. Probably won't ever get that feeling again unfortunately.

If you aren't gonna use the character for anything other than a quick appearance, there is no reason to waste time modeling them when you have a perfectly good one from another game. Especially when both are around the peak of what's feasible performance wise.

Same thing with Mario Galaxy, its engine, and all of its assets. Nintendo never boasts about the engines they create (probably obvious why. Remember those "CONDUIT" guys?), but that doesn't mean they dont use what they got. Sega did the same thing with Sonic Heroes > Shadow, and Unleashed > Generations. Oh, and engine wise, SA2 > Billy Hatcher, if that counts.

Square openly mentioned that they drastically lowered the amount of polygons they were using during the development of FFXII. Most of their visual flair in FFXII and KH2 came from their use of animated pre-rendered special effects. FFXII in particular is one of the best looking videogames i've ever played. Its environments were just amazing, in terms of direction i'd still rate it high over XIII.

Even in FFXIII Square used the same resource-saving techniques. The heads on all the character models are extremely detailed, while the rest is mostly just really nice texture+shader work. None of the models in that game are particularly impressive.

[OverbounD]

You have to give credit to Sega. Consider the last 3 major Sonic games Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colors, and Sonic Generations against the last 3 major Mario games Galaxy 1, 2, and 3D Land. It would be fairly easy to mistake one Mario title for another. That's not the case with Sonic games. They seem to put a lot more effort into making unique environments.

[TailsSena]

yes sena

No, Sereph.

^Colours Model

I don't see the point in Nintendo NOT reusing the melee models for alot of stuff. The graphical power between Gamecube --> Wii wasn't any sort of significant. In fact one of my favorite things to do with Melee was poke around the trophy viewer because of how ridiculous the jump in detail was from SSB64 to Melee. Of course, that excitement didn't exist with Brawl. Probably won't ever get that feeling again unfortunately.

If you aren't gonna use the character for anything other than a quick appearance, there is no reason to waste time modeling them when you have a perfectly good one from another game. Especially when both are around the peak of what's feasible performance wise.

Looks that way, huh? Especially since I don't really see much difference between PS3 and PS4. (Let's not start a shitstorm though.)

Oh, and engine wise, SA2 > Billy Hatcher, if that counts.

What the shit. Woah.

Square openly mentioned that they drastically lowered the amount of polygons they were using during the development of FFXII. Most of their visual flair in FFXII and KH2 came from their use of animated pre-rendered special effects. FFXII in particular is one of the best looking videogames i've ever played. Its environments were just amazing, in terms of direction i'd still rate it high over XIII.

Even in FFXIII Square used the same resource-saving techniques. The heads on all the character models are extremely detailed, while the rest is mostly just really nice texture+shader work. None of the models in that game are particularly impressive.

I read about the first one there, second one I kinda' figured, because it makes sense that the effort would go into the hands.

[Serephim]

No, Sereph.

^Colours Model

The colors model and the unleashed model are probably the same model, but the Unleashed one obviously has alot more polygons in it. If you swapped the Colors model into Unleashed's environment and lighting you would notice the difference immediately.

Im just going to assume you're defending the Wii's hardware though. Using UnleashedWii as a reference point, my guess would be that Sega used the same technology behind the Hedgehog Engine and just removed all the resource intensive benefits from it when doing Colors. Sonic Generations is just a reskinned Sonic Unleashed. Sonic Colors plays the same way, it just isn't so glamorous.

You have to give credit to Sega. Consider the last 3 major Sonic games Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colors, and Sonic Generations against the last 3 major Mario games Galaxy 1, 2, and 3D Land. It would be fairly easy to mistake one Mario title for another. That's not the case with Sonic games. They seem to put a lot more effort into making unique environments.

I agree with that. I guess the nature of Sonic kind of demands environments that are more robust than those of Mario, which get away with being very simplistic. The concept art of Unleashed was outsourced, IIRC. And the concept art avaliable in Generations is awesome looking, with Sky Sanctuary probably being my favorite.

I just wish Sega would drop the 2D-3D segment idea for modern sonic gameplay. It just sort of kills the experience. Mario games at least let you interact with the things you see and give you 3D freedom. The Modern stages in Generations just felt like a massive tease, with the crazy detailed throwback maps that stick you in a 2D perspective for most of the stages.

It was annoying in Generations because the first act is 100% 2D anyway. For like the first time in years Generations actually gave some horizontal expansion to the 3D stages, but it would feel so much more expansive if the 2D paths were 3D instead.

[TailsSena]

I agree with that. I guess the nature of Sonic kind of demands environments that are more robust than those of Mario, which get away with being very simplistic. The concept art of Unleashed was outsourced, IIRC. And the concept art avaliable in Generations is awesome looking, with Sky Sanctuary probably being my favorite.

I just wish Sega would drop the 2D-3D segment idea for modern sonic gameplay. It just sort of kills the experience. Mario games at least let you interact with the things you see and give you 3D freedom. The Modern stages in Generations just felt like a massive tease, with the crazy detailed throwback maps that stick you in a 2D perspective for most of the stages.

It was annoying in Generations because the first act is 100% 2D anyway. For like the first time in years Generations actually gave some horizontal expansion to the 3D stages, but it would feel so much more expansive if the 2D paths were 3D instead.

IMO, SEGA just needs to looks back at Adventure 1 and 2, and thus fucking remember how Modern Sonic controlled at his best.

Generations, for both Classic and Modern, was incredibly clunky and somewhat unresponsive for me. When I first played Classic, I expected competent emulation of the Genesis physics. What'd I get? Nothing of the sort. It felt like a Castlevania game.

Modern? Pff, he controls like a cow...!

The colors model and the unleashed model are probably the same model, but the Unleashed one obviously has alot more polygons in it. If you swapped the Colors model into Unleashed's environment and lighting you would notice the difference immediately.

Im just going to assume you're defending the Wii's hardware though. Using UnleashedWii as a reference point, my guess would be that Sega used the same technology behind the Hedgehog Engine and just removed all the resource intensive benefits from it when doing Colors. Sonic Generations is just a reskinned Sonic Unleashed. Sonic Colors plays the same way, it just isn't so glamorous.

Same model... More polygons? That would mean it's not the same model.

What I'm saying is that it's the same model, just retextured... Oh well.

Defending the Wii's hardware... Ehh, not so much the hardware as a whole, but just that it's polygon budget isn't as bad as it's RAM makes it look. I will openly admit that the rest of it is... Economical... (AKA: Shitty.)

[OverbounD]

Same model... More polygons? That would mean it's not the same model.

What I'm saying is that it's the same model, just retextured... Oh well.

Defending the Wii's hardware... Ehh, not so much the hardware as a whole, but just that it's polygon budget isn't as bad as it's RAM makes it look. I will openly admit that the rest of it is... Economical... (AKA: Shitty.)

Typically game models are modeled with extremely high poly counts. Higher than the Wii or 360 could do. The poly count is then reduced based on power of the system. It's extremely likely that they've been using the same Sonic model since Unleashed. Heck the Unleashed model might even be an edited version of 2006. It really doesn't make sense to redo an entire model when you have a template to work with.

I agree with that. I guess the nature of Sonic kind of demands environments that are more robust than those of Mario, which get away with being very simplistic. The concept art of Unleashed was outsourced, IIRC. And the concept art avaliable in Generations is awesome looking, with Sky Sanctuary probably being my favorite.

I just wish Sega would drop the 2D-3D segment idea for modern sonic gameplay. It just sort of kills the experience. Mario games at least let you interact with the things you see and give you 3D freedom. The Modern stages in Generations just felt like a massive tease, with the crazy detailed throwback maps that stick you in a 2D perspective for most of the stages.

It was annoying in Generations because the first act is 100% 2D anyway. For like the first time in years Generations actually gave some horizontal expansion to the 3D stages, but it would feel so much more expansive if the 2D paths were 3D instead.

I agree that I would like a true 3D Sonic game that wasn't on rails. I don't think we're likely to get one any time soon however. New Super Mario Bros. Wii sold far more copies than either of the Galaxy games.

At the same time however I don't mind 2D sections in 3D games. I just wish the 3D sections were more fleshed out. 3D Sonic games seem to require a sort of transition between 3D sections of a stage. 3D Mario games too. To that end Sonic Adventure titles typically used long sections of springs or panels to hope between 3D models that make up a stage. 3D mario games have been using the star cannons as of late. I feel that placing 2D sections of game play where transitions between areas is needed is a better solution than simply removing control from the player while the transition takes place.

IMO, SEGA just needs to looks back at Adventure 1 and 2, and thus fucking remember how Modern Sonic controlled at his best.

Generations, for both Classic and Modern, was incredibly clunky and somewhat unresponsive for me. When I first played Classic, I expected competent emulation of the Genesis physics. What'd I get? Nothing of the sort. It felt like a Castlevania game.

Modern? Pff, he controls like a cow...!

It's hard to compare the current state of Sonic games with the adventure titles given that game standards have changed so much. Adventure games are very buggy from today standards. I tried to play Adventure 1 recently and couldn't believe how bad it was. Certainly worse than I remember.

[Serephim]

IMO, SEGA just needs to looks back at Adventure 1 and 2, and thus fucking remember how Modern Sonic controlled at his best.

Generations, for both Classic and Modern, was incredibly clunky and somewhat unresponsive for me. When I first played Classic, I expected competent emulation of the Genesis physics. What'd I get? Nothing of the sort. It felt like a Castlevania game.

Modern? Pff, he controls like a cow...!

Sonic Adventure approached Sonic WAY differently than Modern does, so much so that they really aren't worth comparing. Modern isn't designed to explore environments, he's designed to blast through them. I dont think sonic would control very well using the same control scheme as Dreamcast uses. They'd have to come up with multiple methods of movement to incorporate both the platforming of Sonic Adventure/2 with the high-speed of Modern Sonic. Otherwise you'll end up either too jerky (SA1/2) or too tanky (modern).

The issue is that Sonic has been struggling for years to find something that it is actually good at. The original platforming element of the Genesis titles has not meshed well at all with the increasing prominence of "BOOM SUPER FAST" brought on by Sonic Heroes and onwards. In fact i'd argue that the idea of "speed" has been the primary flaw in nearly every sonic game leading up to unleashed. It has stomped out any rational chance of Sonic returning to momentum based gameplay.

Sonic Unleashed was the first game to actually take the speed concept and change sonic's gameplay entirely to fit the idea. So I don't think it's surprising that modern sonic's gameplay is doing so well right now.

Same model... More polygons? That would mean it's not the same model.

No Sena.

It probably IS the same model. Just with a significant reduction in polygons. It most probably IS retextured because Unleashed was in HD.

[TailsSena]

Oh, gotcha on the model part now.

Call me crazy, but I still like the jerky responsiveness of the Dreamcast games much more than that of the newer games... I like my control, and my weight, and my momentum... My physics. I just wish they'd try it again some time, and make it less buggy, because this is no longer the era where bugs are a major issue, right?