2D games vs 3D games

[z3d]

I've been noticing more and more 3D Sonic fan games being made alongside the 2D ones.

What's our views on that?

Hate it? Doomed to failure? 2D ftw?

I mean I've seen some decent potential in some, there's plenty of potential from some of the guys here cough*zykov eddy*cough.

What does everyone think though? It seems most people who try to make 3D games get ripped for it instantly.

I sure as hell wouldn't mind giving it a shot. But no point if everyone will knock it down straight away.

[Kessler12]

I think its because of the real 3d games that are affecting the fan games. Maybe everyone seen to much failure in 3d sonic games(sonic 06[whole game], sonic Unleashed[werehog/slow hub worlds])

But I only played 3 3d fan games(Srb2, Sonic emerald hunt and Sonic the hedgehog 3D) and there all great.

[z3d]

definetely. i'd say you got it right in one, sega's 3d games have been so dire lately that most people don't see any chance in 3D games for Sonic anymore.

and you're right about the 3D fan games too, I've played SRB2 and it sure as hell isn't bad. Dami's/Mark's BlitzSonic engine as well, another example.

guess it's up to us hey lol

[Serephim]

I've been noticing more and more 3D Sonic fan games being made alongside the 2D ones.

What's our views on that?

Hate it? Doomed to failure? 2D ftw?

I mean I've seen some decent potential in some, there's plenty of potential from some of the guys here cough*zykov eddy*cough.

What does everyone think though? It seems most people who try to make 3D games get ripped for it instantly.

I sure as hell wouldn't mind giving it a shot. But no point if everyone will knock it down straight away.

Its because 3D games are relatively new to the fangame scene, and has a different kind of learning curve to it than Gamemaker or a Clickteam product.

If you didn't know, we've been making 2D games here at SFGHQ forever -- When we started out they were pretty medicore too. We've just kind of evolved into fast detection engines with slopes and angle detection, but even before it we enjoyed our games like we do now. (i personally enjoyed the old ones better, since all the "games" now are just overglorified tech demos, but i digress...)

3D fangames are now made easier by programs, but since people aren't really able to run on the main website (that goes with this forum) and download base engines to work from, its kinda difficult. They are going to start out pretty medicore.

[z3d]

Yeaaah hahaha I remember downloading the likes of Sonic Robo Blast 1 and some funny game (which amazed me at the time) where Sonic went to save Knuckles, startin off by swimming the ocean on a floating ducky.

Ohh I guess you're right. I just tried attempting a 3D game... it is hard atm :/

really isn't much source for a sonic engine is there.

Meh, at least I learnt how to animate (pretty well I might add

Guess we just need time!

[DimensionWarped]

3D fangames are almost impossible for a small group of people to make, not because the extra dimension makes programming that much trickier, but because the asset creation is a colossal task. The huge mods that you see getting done don't have anywhere near as much asset creation involved as a full game would.

As for a Sonic game, it has an extra fault against it, and thats that 3D Sonic games just aren't as good as 2D Sonic games. That isn't an immutable idea or anything, but the odds are seriously stacked against you when it comes to making something 3D that is also quality. Suffice to say, the 3D games that do show even an ounce of promise always end up succumbing to the harsh reality of asset creation just being that huge of a task.

I think the one to actually go furthest so far is an Unreal Tournament 2004 mod, but even that just keeps going backwards and forwards... and thats in spite of having a rather large collection of pre-existing material to use.

[GSF]

Just like the "2D era" had an "evolution process", the 3D one will slowly advance as well. Currently, the tools are getting more powerful, and new ones come around: Compare TGF with MMF2, or old GM with the most recent version, there's Construct, Löve, et cetera.

2D fangames started with the Platform Movement era, where characters would get stuck at walls.

Even though, there are some games that stand out with their gameplay, story or variety, for example Sonic Chaos 1 & 2 by Aytaç Aksu, Tale of Two Sonics and the Sonic Ultra series.

Then, the Static era came, with the introduction of sensors and more customizable engines, allowing easy implementation of flying, gliding, whatever. My favorites from this one are Sonic Turbo, the Thirdscape series and Neo Sonic Universe.

And today, thanks to the new capabilities of the popular tools and awesome members (Worlds team), we have projects that feel like the good old Genesis games.

There are nice projects from all eras, and even today I still enjoy having another run at Sonichaos Revolution, One Girl Army and MAdventure.

As for a Sonic game, it has an extra fault against it, and thats that 3D Sonic games just aren't as good as 2D Sonic games. That isn't an immutable idea or anything, but the odds are seriously stacked against you when it comes to making something 3D that is also quality.

Agreed. There's a certain appeal with the classic 2D Sonic, which is lost in 3D renditions. It doesn't mean that any 3D fangame would be crappy, though. I'm looking forward to new ideas introduced in such projects.

[BlazeHedgehog]

We have enough trouble getting 2D fangames completed.

3D fangames take that much more work. SRB2 was created using 15-20 year old tech and it still took 11 years to get where it is - the supposed "final" release. BlitzSonic went nowhere, Ashura: Dark Reign is crawling along at a snail's pace, and that Sonic Halo mod is not very good in my opinion.

Don't hold your breath.

Swearing "all of Sonic in 3D will be crap" seems a bit foolish to me, though - just because Sonic Team can't seem to figure it out doesn't mean Sonic in 3D is doomed. Sonic Team just kind of sucks nowadays, that's all. Look at Billy Hatcher and NiGHTS on the Wii. Sonic in 3D will work, it just needs the right group of people to do it properly.

[Amesuki]

I think both have there upsides and downsides.

I remember way way back two-three years back when I was developing Project SX on GM6. It was my take on the cancelled Sonic Xtreme game. I never finished it sadly and was due mainly to what DW was saying. I was involved in a team but the team got lazy and it was usually me that was coding, making textures basically doing everything. Considering I never used GM before (I was originally just the texture artist) to end up doing near enough everything was just too huge of a task.

Saying that, heres me now with Mayhem and still after two years I havn't finished the damn game and I think thats down to getting bored of the project easily.

Anyway rambling over, I think that 2D games are easier to make but yet after the engine is near done, the whole boring, same old same old level creation, placing tiles gets rather boring. (To me anyway) where as 3D games are just so huge of a project to finish they rarely get finished or get finished and seem rushed.

[Aaron C-T]

We have enough trouble getting 2D fangames completed...

3D fangames take that much more work...

Swearing "all of Sonic in 3D will be crap" seems a bit foolish to me, though - just because Sonic Team can't seem to figure it out doesn't mean Sonic in 3D is doomed. Sonic Team just kind of sucks nowadays, that's all. Look at Billy Hatcher and NiGHTS on the Wii. Sonic in 3D will work, it just needs the right group of people to do it properly.

This. Modeling characters/level assets/etc is a lot of work. Not to mention lighting, rigging, animating, texturing, etc. And that's all without even mentioing some sort of engine/mod or level design and without any clear example to live up to (the amount of widely loved 3D Sonic games to use as inspiration is incredibly low in comparison to the Genesis, Advanced, DS 2D games).

[z3d]

Very true guys very true.

I forgot how long it's taken for the 2D games to get to the level they're at now.

Guess there's some time yet till we find a way of not only making 3D games quite well, but also an ideal way that doesn't take more than twice the time it takes to make a 2D one.

Anyway rambling over, I think that 2D games are easier to make but yet after the engine is near done, the whole boring, same old same old level creation, placing tiles gets rather boring. (To me anyway) where as 3D games are just so huge of a project to finish they rarely get finished or get finished and seem rushed.

Definetely. I get bored far too often making 2D games after the base engine, even if I can spruce it up a bit. 3D games have a while yet.

That being said I also think that not all 3D games will be bad, just need the right people. And there's definetely progress being made. Maybe slow, but steady.

Once the tech is a bit more user-friendly I'll probably jump on that band wagon and give it a try myself.

[DimensionWarped]

There is no way to significantly lessen the amount of work involved with 3D save for copious amounts of asset recycling. Sure, there are lots of tools that make creating height maps and even more complex terrains fairly simple, but none of that really changes the fact that you are going to have to populate these areas with hundreds if not thousands of complicated 3D models (and 3D modeling is a skill that few of us can do and fewer of us can do well) which would generally take a team of many artists working full time a year or more to create.

The task is nothing short of phenomenal, believe you me.

[cyborg_ar]

Making a 3D engine that doesn't suck is terribly hard, look, even sega is still struggling with that

[Amesuki]

That made me so lol Cyborg. So true, so true.

[FanGameRevolver]

But I only played 3 3d fan games(Srb2, Sonic emerald hunt and Sonic the hedgehog 3D) and there all great.

SQWEEEE!!! The one I made?! (in all honesty...it sucked (IMO) and I put minimal effort into it.) Also if anyone is wondering there is an editable engine for that and it has been improved since.

For game maker of course. http://z10.invisionfree.com/FGX_Insider/index.php?showtopic=359

Yeah I have to agree with most of what was said here. The 2D games were generally better gameplay-wise (although im a huge sonic unleashed fan-*shot*) Making a 3D game IS more work. especially if you want it to look original and professional. I little experience with model making which is, as far as I can tell, a lot more work then sprite work.

There is a lack of simple 3D game makers out there. The only one I can think of are the blender tools and game maker, both of which are going to require LOTS of extra and advanced script writing to get them to the point of 2K6 even. I have started working on an actually decent 3D engine for game maker here[ http://www.sonicfangameshq.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5995 ] and should be updating that thread sometime soon.

Are there good 3d fangames? Yes, Srb2 is one of the best fangame's period. personally I was looking forward to the Nexus(a 2d game) demo more. (and no...not to suck up to our admin here...it really is a great game.

I like playing the 2D fangames more in general. but god do I hate the boring process of making them.

[z3d]

lol yea Sega need's to pull themselves together. Seriously.

If they mess up the 2D sonic game that's coming out as well I'm switching sides to the fat plumber.

FanGameRevolver that's not a bad effort at all my friend. Are you doing this engine as a single person?

[Serephim]

Making a 3D engine that doesn't suck is terribly hard, look, even sega is still struggling with that

Sega doesn't suck at making the engine so much as putting it to good use. Look at Sonic Adventure -- It had the absolute worst collision engine out of any 3D game available, yet everyone seems to ignore it for the fun it gives. Same goes with Sadv2 when compared to Heroes.

no comment on 2k6 though

I will say however that SRB2 (the newest release) was as much fun (if not more) than the latest 3D title that came out.

[cyborg_ar]

Sega doesn't suck at making the engine so much as putting it to good use. Look at Sonic Adventure -- It had the absolute worst collision engine out of any 3D game available, yet everyone seems to ignore it for the fun it gives. Same goes with Sadv2 when compared to Heroes.

no comment on 2k6 though

I will say however that SRB2 (the newest release) was as much fun (if not more) than the latest 3D title that came out.

lol, i actually hate SA for having an unplayable engine

[Amesuki]

Tbh if Sonic Xtreme (PC version that Senn and Alon were working on) came out...that would totally be a smegging awesome 3D version of Sonic. Just those videos, it just seemed to work...

[FanGameRevolver]

FanGameRevolver that's not a bad effort at all my friend. Are you doing this engine as a single person?

all by myself...although I am building off of Damizean's 2D slope engine. Its honestly not as much work as I thought it would be. I've worked with game maker's 3d functions for awhile now...the real issue is it has low frame rates. working to get rid rid of redundant code and stuff can be tricky.

It's also not nearly as accurate as dami's 2d engine as I had to cut/edit some things (more like every single collision script plus add my own).

Getting the camera to pull that stunt was the trickiest part. (and I don't think that sega ever had a camera like that.

also all loops face the same direction. I could have them face other directions, but its honestly more work then necessary. and would complicate level design to the point of being hard to work with. (this is because game maker uses a 2d level construction tool however sonic can still turn to face whatever direction he chooses and take said loops at any angle. (which will enable path-based corkscrews. I know there are better 3d engines out there...but they use advanced scripting which makes it hard for most fangamers to work with.

[Amesuki]

That 3D/360 engine F'G'Revolver is pretty sweet. Friend and I did the same once two years back but it was a side on view. Looked like rivals in the end but it wasn't slow and clunky cause we was working off Dami's 360o. I don't think I have the source anymore but my friend might. I'll see if I can dig it out soon but I'm not promising anything. Why I'm rather interested in your 3D games because I used to love working on Gm6 D3D code back in the day.

[z3d]

I know there are better 3d engines out there...but they use advanced scripting which makes it hard for most fangamers to work with.

Regardless I think you're doing a decent job. Props man.

That screenshot with the wall run seems a bit off tho, as in the sprite's angle. is that how it's staying or..?

Apart from that lol, I take my hat off to you. You can do a lot more than I can do anyway

[FanGameRevolver]

That screenshot with the wall run seems a bit off tho, as in the sprite's angle. is that how it's staying or..?

It appears off from that angle, The in-game camera will stay behind him, or to the side with sprites from the side during 2.5D stuffs.

[Candescence]

Hey, guys, guess what? Unity is now free. Well, the basic version, but STILL.

Has anyone considered for a viable 3D engine? I hear it's actually good (one guy I talked to says its wonderful), not to mention it's, ya know, free now. Granted, the basic edition is missing some stuff I would like to make use of, but still. Maybe someone can trying making a Sonic engine outta that?

[Damizean]

It's slow as hell, though :/