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Why Bother at all? Fan Games


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SAGE has come and gone again and with it, another set of Sonic fan games. But it's 2014, the age where people can actually make a buck or two doing what they love. Is it archaic to do what you love just because you love it? No... not at all.

 

You see I kept hearing a complaint at SAGE this year that I hadn't before at any other: my game isn't popular enough and in turn, I'm not popular enough. Pro tip: just because you make a Sonic game, does not guarantee that anyone will ever care. And maybe it's time to ask yourself, why don't people care?

 

Year after year, SAGE is flooded with one act demos that might have different sprites and layouts, but ultimately have the same "Green Hill" Zone-esque features and they sort of blend together because of it. Now don't get me wrong, the key isn't to just make something completely different for your first zone or your demo. Instead, assess WHY you're doing it in the first place.

 

From a design standpoint, is it because it's the standard? Or because literally just about every Sonic games starts with green foliage and/or beaches? Maybe you wanna follow that path as a way of trying to integrate your game in, make it seem like home with the official titles. That's fine, but it also doesn't hurt to take risks. Maybe they'll pay off, maybe they won't. But more importantly, look at why you're even making the game at all.

 

Long before people made things with the intent of money on the internet, they did it as what's called a "Labor of Love." That means you make something because you like it and you want to show the world you like it, not for fame, money, or any other reason. And that's what bothered me about SAGE. There were people who made fan games and were angered because "no one played or reviewed my game!! I'm not recognized universally!!" This is never a good reason to do something. Never be upset that you don't have peer approval for something, but be proud that you made something in the first place.

 

And lastly, never pass off criticism as trolling or having a go. Especially at SAGE, 90% these are things that could improve your game and maybe make it worthwhile someday. Sonic fan games have been around for a minute now and people know exactly what can make them better. At the end of the day, step back and ask yourself, why am I making this. Why do I bother? And if fame or fortune isn’t an answer, you’re probably on the right track.

Edited by Neo Hazard
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I personally do it for the interest I have in creating games and Sonic in general...

 

I obviously cant sell my game, so that's the money out of the window :P and secondly, I dont think I want the fame that came with games like BtS and overture, I am just making my game for enjoyment of myself and my team. If they are happy, I am happy...

 

And also, It takes time for a game to start becoming popular... firstly people have to begin noticing them... secondly they need to try them, then maybe will let some friends know about this cool game they just played and as that spreads, you find your game becoming more popular... (from experience)

 

Just my two cents...

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Fangames allow me a way to work on different approaches and development practices more easily.  There's an existing base of graphics, concepts, etc that I can work with and experiment on in order to improve my skills overall (and possibly even finish something, thus at least demonstrating that I might be capable of seeing a project to completion).  That way, if something I'm trying doesn't work out, I haven't just screwed up an entire indie game that might have had some promise before I decided to try a radically different way of coding the engine, for instance.

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I've been arguing this for a while. Fangaming has no soul anymore.

 

Older fangames felt more like celebrations of the fandom, the ones today seem to be more about reviving it, or about "doing it right". The genesis sonic games are worshiped like the holy bible, we've long since moved into frameworks much more capable than the genesis titles, yet people even to this day are obsessed with their games emulating the ones from the genesis era as if they're inherently superior. The fangaming community long since built up a ridiculous amount of sprites to use, sega themselves as well when they created the 4 GBA titles, yet people insist on creating their own assets from scratch, an endeavor that is almost always paramount to making the actual game.

 

 

Now, there's nothing wrong with wanting to create your own assets, i just find it odd how everything looks exactly the same, as if they're all working off the same rubric. I miss the days when people made Tails and Knuckles fangames, weren't afraid to use subpar graphics if they were custom, fancharacters with stupid cheesy powers, and just generally did whatever the hell they wanted to. 

 

 

I don't want to be misunderstood, i'm not saying people shouldn't try to have their material look or play the best it can. But when it comes to Sonic fangaming, people are so focused on the game doing the right things, that they do nothing new, and are just as monotonous, predicable and boring as Sega's games. Because that's exactly what sega has been doing for the last 3 major titles.

 

 

...In fact, I almost entirely blame SEGA for this. Inspiration has always come from the sonic games, but they've all sucked recently. SEGA doesn't even know what it wants Sonic to be about anymore, and they've regressed so massively on the series that at this point, it's impossible for even the fans to move forward on anything, only nostalgia over the past. 

Edited by Serephim
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I've got to agree with that.  Really a lot of creativity has been lost since the old days when we couldn't accurately represent the Genesis games if we even tried.  We were also rolling off SA2 at the time, which everyone loved then (and we still are fond of now, in a nostalgic sense) and so people weren't afraid to do some crazy things or even, god forbid, add some story-- which were always kind of laughable but really did show that they really were made by true fans.

 

I remember being super excited for almost all the fangames because they all had a very distinct feel and sometimes an interesting story too that I actually cared about and wanted resolved.  Now a lot of games feel pretty samey, and not just because they all use the same engine.  I should clarify that cool with that; I remember when the Sonic SV2 engine was the base of EVERYTHING, but those games at least felt different to each other as people were changing the sprites dramatically, making up some weird level ideas, and adding their own extra gameplay elements to that base engine to make something that felt like Sonic, but was still unique too.  Maybe some of that was just me being young and naive and enjoying the simpler things in life (I was like, 10 or 11 anyway, so no games were really all that bad to me!) but I think some of things I remember about early fangames are still important.

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I half agree with Serephim's sentiments. Sonic fan games should strive to do more than just give us another Sonic 2 clone with the same plot, the same opening green level, the same abilities and nothing more.

 

On the other hand, I feel that in order to go beyond what the Genesis titles were, you have to first match them. You have to understand the fundamentals of what made them work. They need controls that make Sonic and friends feel satisfying to play as. Since the controls in Sonic games are often tied to the slope physics, it's also important to derive the slope physics from the real world physics that inspired the Genesis titles. You already know why this is important just from playing Sonic 4 Episode 1.

 

The games also need interesting level designs that encourage both speed and exploration. Limit the cheap deaths, limit the bottomless pits and dick enemy placement, and instead create challenge through clever platforming and unique enemies with different weak points. Make sure there are little to no automated sections so the control is always in the player's hands. You already know why this is important just from playing Sonic 4 Episode 1 and 2.

 

Once you understand the fundamentals, you can go crazy and add all sorts of things on top of them. Add in as many different characters, abilities, wacky level tropes and new enemies to your heart's content. You can even think up crazy plots that haven't been done in Sonic games before. But you need a functioning template first. As far as the official games are concerned, the most functional Sonic titles are still the early 2D ones, their only real fault being the zoomed in camera.

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The reason why I do fangames is because I love this franchise (or what it once was) and I want practice with game development. Fan games are an "easy" way to learn about game design, as you already have your source material so to say, you only need to make a game around that. I don't do them for fame or glory, I do it for the passion I have for this, and you bet I'm going to put my heart on it.

 

If it ends up being popular? Good, I'm glad people enjoy the product. It's honestly not a priority for me.

 

Though I sort of agree, inspiration nowadays comes from "I think I could do something better than SEGA" most of the time, specially with things like Sonic 4 happening.

 

A possible reason why those old kind of fangames don't occur anymore is because of this stigma a lot of people have against Sonic in general, the fan base is often seen as "retarded" or "autistic" (eh, 4chan?) and making those kind of fangames will usually give you a lot of bad rep and negativity towards you, which honestly nobody wants, specially if you put recolor/crazy/edgy fan characters on it. The internet is not the same place it was 10 years ago.

 

But you can also not give a shit and do what you want, that works too.

Edited by Jassbec
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I would have to agree with what Jassbec said. Even though I never really made anything, I found working with fangames and engines like Sonic Worlds to be a learning experience, mostly with the program Clickteam Fusion. I've had many ideas to make an original game sometime soon, and I want to say working with fangames (albiet unfinished and unreleased projects that were borderline tech demos) has had a positive effect on me.

 

Sorry if this sounds weirdly worded, I just woke up not too long ago.

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On the other hand, I feel that in order to go beyond what the Genesis titles were, you have to first match them. You have to understand the fundamentals of what made them work. They need controls that make Sonic and friends feel satisfying to play as. Since the controls in Sonic games are often tied to the slope physics, it's also important to derive the slope physics from the real world physics that inspired the Genesis titles. You already know why this is important just from playing Sonic 4 Episode 1.

 

The games also need interesting level designs that encourage both speed and exploration. Limit the cheap deaths, limit the bottomless pits and dick enemy placement, and instead create challenge through clever platforming and unique enemies with different weak points. Make sure there are little to no automated sections so the control is always in the player's hands. You already know why this is important just from playing Sonic 4 Episode 1 and 2.

 

Once you understand the fundamentals, you can go crazy and add all sorts of things on top of them. Add in as many different characters, abilities, wacky level tropes and new enemies to your heart's content. You can even think up crazy plots that haven't been done in Sonic games before. But you need a functioning template first. As far as the official games are concerned, the most functional Sonic titles are still the early 2D ones, their only real fault being the zoomed in camera.

 

Okay, what you're saying makes sense. But I totally disagree with the angle here. It's an example of what i'm getting at. I was talking about this in Jass's thread on the subject about recreating Sonic 4. Bottom line, making a "good sonic game", at its core, has noooottthing to do with any of that stuff. It helps, yes, but it's not going to make the game good. All you did was list the things that made Sonic 1 through S&K good titles, the things they didn't screw up on. Making a game good is not a mathematical equation, it's not a checklist. This is why I said it feels like most of you guys are building every fangame off a common rubric. It's this mentality that causes it to happen.

 

Sonic 4 wasn't a bad game because it didn't have roll physics, it was a bad game because its only goal during development was a cheap imitation of the games nobody bitched about. The game had no direction, correcting the roll physics and recompiling that game will never make it good. Lost World, another terrible game, not because of the stuff it didn't have, but because of the stuff it tried to have. Tried to be abstract, creative, simple, deep, nostalgic, fresh, slow, fast...it had no fucking direction, and it was obvious. It pulled its content only from Sonic games of the past and Mario games everyone raves about, but with none of the driving inspiration that made them good games to begin with. It's like reading a badly plagiarized essay in class.

 

 

So what i'm saying is, in playing most recent fangames, your main focus being "match the genesis titles" almost immediately sets you up for this. Your idea of matching the genesis titles makes perfect sense, but it also consumes the entire design process of making a fangame. It's no longer created, it's manufactured. The fact that everyone is so critical and concerned about every aspect of their fangame being "right" is the reason why all of them are boring by design. It's no longer about personal enjoyment, nobody is creating what they want, they're creating what they think everyone else wants. It's the reason official sonic games are ass now. Having your game be medicore but fun to experience is better than it being physically perfect yet lifeless. And I don't see how that overreaching mentality is any better for creating legit indie games.

 

 

Honestly, the moment 360 engines became the norm, sonic fangaming died.

Edited by Serephim
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I can understand what Sereph is pointing out. There are great projects that use SW as a base to create nice original concepts, but then there's the other bunch of games that are basically SW base engine + levels.

Originally, SW was going to be a project where members would submit their own levels in a big database so that anyone can play. Following this logic, many of today's SW based fangames could be replaced with a 'create your game' function in a big SW build that basically lists the zones to play. Kinda like SORRMaker in the Streets of Rage Remake.

I miss the times when DLing a fangame meant having to touch some unknown territory. I had tons of fun playing One Girl Army, Time Attacked, MAdventure, Thirdscape 1 & 2, Sonic Velocity (demo), and the Magicgrafx games. Yes, most didn't have 360º movement at all and did not feel like Sonic games, but they were original concepts.

Nowadays I feel I'm just playing the same game with a different level expansion pack.

 

It's no longer about personal enjoyment, nobody is creating what they want, they're creating what they think everyone else wants. It's the reason official sonic games are ass now. Having your game be medicore but fun to experience is better than it being physically perfect yet lifeless.

THIS, THIS, THIS. I'm tired of seeing posts along these lines:

Following feedback I decided to change X Y and Z

What do you think is the best option? X or Y?

It's fine to ask for feedback, but another thing is to entirely rely on the audience to build a game. Is it the creator's game, or the audience's game? This is a trend that also affects the industry itself - many devs are now just catering to SJW or trying to get notability by following the latest trends. Games are not being created from the minds of the creative people anymore, they're just manufactured - as Sereph puts it.

Of course, there are exceptions. Before GungHo bought Grasshopper, Suda's games were pretty much whatever Suda wanted. NMH2 had great retro style job minigames, but the only 3D one was the absolutely horrible scorpion collecting one, made even worse. Suda's constant attacks to the player were spot-on as well. (Yeah, I'm still mad about Suda/GungHo killing Lilly Bergamo).

There's also Yoko Taro from Drakengard and Nier fame, who really hates players and loves to troll them. In the end, Nier is still my personal game of 2010.

Then again, the industry has changed. Same goes for the sanic fangaming world.

Okay, that's it for my rant~

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I should clarify that you don't need the gameplay of the Genesis games to make a good Sonic game. It helps when making a 2D Sonic platformer, but not a good Sonic game overall.

 

Here's the thing. What distinguishes Sonic from other 2D platformers is its use of slopes. Even though Sonic 4 and the Rush games didn't have perfect physics, slopes were still a big part of their design. Levels in other 2D platformers are typically designed with flat 90 degree angles. If you're lucky, you might come across a 45 degree angle! But Sonic has slopes that bend up and down at practically all angles. That was what allowed Sonic to go fast to begin with.

 

Do you need slope physics to make a good 2D Sonic platformer? Well, no. But if you are going to make a Sonic game, how do you plan to incorporate his speed? You could just make a standard platformer, but then why make it about Sonic? Perhaps there are other ways to incorporate Sonic's speed in a 2D game, but I've yet to see them done in a way that's... well, fun.

 

You can also put Sonic in other genres. Puzzle games, racing games, rhythm games, the list goes on. Just as long as they are done in way that's fun.

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If you guys are so gung-ho about fangaming needing to break out of the whole emulating the classics thing and get into more original ideas, then by all means... do it. Engines that emulate the originals like Worlds are just tools. No one is forcing you to use them and using them doesn't prevent you from thinking outside the box. Hell, it's not like Sonic Chrono Adventure wasn't released earlier this year and it does a bunch of neat interesting stuff just building off of the template of a classic Sonic engine. Heck, Streak took Worlds and turned it into a brawler. It's just a base, you can build it up to be what you want.

You know, I can agree that I don't really see much value in yet another one act demo made from Sonic Worlds with a green hill clone that doesn't bring any new ideas to the table, but even just another green hill zone layout is more interesting than doing nothing. How many of you bitching in here have actually released anything lately? Stop posting on here to rant about the efforts of others and spend some of that time being productive and setting an example.

For what it's worth, Jassbec, you get a thumbs up for understanding that fangaming is simply a means to learn skills related to something you enjoy. It's a lot easier to learn if you've got people learning with you and it's a lot easier to find people to learn with when you share a common goal. For a long time, creating classic Sonic mechanics has been our common goal, and for the most part, we've achieved it. I don't believe that's ever really been realized into a full game on par with the potential of some of our members just yet, but the pieces are all there. All the people who are still working on classic styled projects like Time Twisted want is for there to be some tangible product of all that effort.

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Figure I should step back in again, my point was that I saw a lot of people on SAGE whining that their games, and themselves, were not automatically popular. To me, this is an awful reason to do anything, especially when making something like this. So the point of this thread was more why do you make fan games, and for the most part, the answer is for a learning experience.

 

And that's good! Because when you have an engine like Sonic Worlds, you don't have to worry about the real heavy lifting, so much as focus on level design, and in turn, what makes a game good at all (not just a Sonic game, I might add.) I think it can also lend an opportunity to see what you can add in, similar to how DW mentioned Chrono Adventure and the mechanics/gimmicks it brought to Worlds as well. These kinds of things are interesting and ultimately make for a good learning experience.
 

In the end though, my point of making this thread is to see why people make games at all. The remark about a one act demo seems like they're testing the waters, and if nobody cares, then they don't want to go on. But maybe that's just the outside looking in, not completely sure.

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You know, I've been involved with more than my share of one act demos over the years, but I don't begrudge them of their status just because they were one act demos. Even one interesting thing about a level makes a level worth making and the levels I helped to make were all rather unique. I mean, OK, there was that one Christmas Emerald Hill Zone demo I did years ago with Slingerland, but that was just for shits and giggles...

All I'm really getting at is that there is nothing intrinsically bad about a project that doesn't end up turning into a full game. As long as people are working on things that they feel are worth working on, it's all good.

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I have nothing to say, everyone has pretty much said what I would have said.

Do you need slope physics to make a good 2D Sonic platformer? Well, no. But if you are going to make a Sonic game, how do you plan to incorporate his speed? You could just make a standard platformer, but then why make it about Sonic? Perhaps there are other ways to incorporate Sonic's speed in a 2D game, but I've yet to see them done in a way that's... well, fun.

Spark the electric jester. There are tricks you can do to get yourself going really fast. You can also still take advantage of slope's angles.

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I have nothing to say, everyone has pretty much said what I would have said.

Do you need slope physics to make a good 2D Sonic platformer? Well, no. But if you are going to make a Sonic game, how do you plan to incorporate his speed? You could just make a standard platformer, but then why make it about Sonic? Perhaps there are other ways to incorporate Sonic's speed in a 2D game, but I've yet to see them done in a way that's... well, fun.

Spark the electric jester. There are tricks you can do to get yourself going really fast. You can also still take advantage of slope's angles.

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I have nothing to say, everyone has pretty much said what I would have said.

Do you need slope physics to make a good 2D Sonic platformer? Well, no. But if you are going to make a Sonic game, how do you plan to incorporate his speed? You could just make a standard platformer, but then why make it about Sonic? Perhaps there are other ways to incorporate Sonic's speed in a 2D game, but I've yet to see them done in a way that's... well, fun.

Spark the electric jester. There are tricks you can do to get yourself going really fast. You can also still take advantage of slope's angles.

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Nothing I said had anything to do with the length of project demos. One act demos vs full length fangames make no difference to me in regards to my opinions on how fangaming has changed. For me, none of my fangaming projects have never broken engine test phase. The original game i'm working on now is actually using the logic framework from my Tails Adventure 2 fangame, construct is just more capable than MMF2 ever was. I'd blame the weight of an actual development pipeline for one act demos and engine tests more than people just being discouraged because others don't show them love. 

 

 

But the actual nature of fangaming has changed, quality and completion aside. Whether you think it's a good thing or not that people are more focused on aesthetics now is your opinion, I personally think it's a bit of a tragedy. Fangames are basically knocking on the classic's front door but lost that unique charm of the fangamer's exploration, so there's just very little to experience anymore.

 

 

 

 

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DW is spot on. I've lost count on the scrap-and-restart cycles I've done with my RPG project, and still haven't made any releases since... when? Damn, it's been a long time.

Any kind of project that serves as testing the waters, increasing skills, or practicing a particular part of design/programming/whatever is something worth doing. I've done tons of themes and graphics for sanic forums that died long ago, most of these were not even used in the end. Regardless of their use, the skills that I developed remain. Back then I was persistent as fuck and I could do several things in one day... Not so much nowadays.

I'm about to be finished with my recover process of the Soft theme. Hang in there a bit more and I'll get the previous colorset back!

In the end, anything that you work on is something in your favor. The only losing move is to be afraid and not do anything. This is what happens to a lot of people, including myself right now.

@Sereph: There are many projects that follow on the same footsteps, but if that is what the author wants, then so be it. There are things to experience, such as original graphic styles, music made from scratch, new gameplay elements - no matter how the game feels or behaves compared to the Genesis titles. It's still an experience you can get something from, unlike 99% of today's mobile games.

I still miss the complete spinoff variety of games, though. Clwe was really damn good at that.

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Fangames are basically knocking on the classic's front door but lost that unique charm of the fangamer's exploration, so there's just very little to experience anymore.

Again, Sonic Chrono Adventure came out this year. It's pretty crazy and out there and it seems like quite a bit to experience to me. 3D fangames have picked up considerably and while they are still janky as hell, they are way more impressive than I'd been thinking anything done by a small hobbyist team could be. Much of the stuff out there now has way more obvious measurable value than the MagicGrafx games that got me onto the scene... and the best among those games are guilty of exactly the same crime.  Chaomega and Sonic Unity were both one act demos that tried to implement cool new features and have a higher level of polish than the simple, somewhat crappy games that came before them. They still stick out far more in my head than any of the dude's completed games.

 

I think your expectations for what the community can produce may be a little too high.  One remarkable fangame every couple years is actually pretty decent output. Maybe not compared to when our expectations were all such that When Tails Gets Bored seemed like a remarkable fangame, but I'll take one Sonic Chrono Adventure over 5 or even 10 of those.

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I have a memory of being about 7 years old and playing Sonic 3 at my grandmothers house with debug mode on. I remember thinking how unique Sonic was compared to other platformers and thought about how I wanted to make a game like that. That thought never went away, so I guess I am trying to fulfill a childhood dream.

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Guest Mr Lange
You see I kept hearing a complaint at SAGE this year that I hadn't before at any other: my game isn't popular enough and in turn, I'm not popular enough. Pro tip: just because you make a Sonic game, does not guarantee that anyone will ever care. And maybe it's time to ask yourself, why don't people care?

 

Year after year, SAGE is flooded with one act demos that might have different sprites and layouts, but ultimately have the same "Green Hill" Zone-esque features and they sort of blend together because of it. Now don't get me wrong, the key isn't to just make something completely different for your first zone or your demo. Instead, assess WHY you're doing it in the first place.

 

Long before people made things with the intent of money on the internet, they did it as what's called a "Labor of Love." That means you make something because you like it and you want to show the world you like it, not for fame, money, or any other reason. And that's what bothered me about SAGE. There were people who made fan games and were angered because "no one played or reviewed my game!! I'm not recognized universally!!" This is never a good reason to do something. Never be upset that you don't have peer approval for something, but be proud that you made something in the first place.

This so very much. It's nauseating to see someone prioritize fame or attention over a genuine interest in what they're doing. It completely disintegrates the soul and believability of a project, because then the creation is basically a lie, a disposable token that exists for the purpose of getting people to glamorize you.

Love for your project comes first, and the love others have for it are born from this. You can't put the cart before the horse, it doesn't work.

You may believe you have put love into your project and your only concern after it's out is that it still hasn't gained attention. Well if you did, I have bad news, your priorities are backwards. That isn't what your concern should be. It probably means you made a sub par experience and your skills are not well enough. If this is the case, your interest should be in improving your skills based on the observation that your game isn't popular, and not in trying to make a thing better because your project wasn't popular. See the difference? The former is observing something that implies lack of skill, and thus wanting to improve yourself. The latter is about trying to do something in the pursuit of popularity.

 

And lastly, never pass off criticism as trolling or having a go. Especially at SAGE, 90% these are things that could improve your game and maybe make it worthwhile someday. Sonic fan games have been around for a minute now and people know exactly what can make them better. At the end of the day, step back and ask yourself, why am I making this. Why do I bother? And if fame or fortune isn’t an answer, you’re probably on the right track.

To add to this, people tend to have a very distorted idea of what constitutes criticism, because those who take offense to criticism have a hard time distinguishing insults from critiques. To them, saying "your sprites are poor in quality" is the same thing as saying "go fucking die you horrible fuck".

This seems to happen when people merge their project with their ego, and thus feel like they're being personally attacked when someone criticizes their project or any aspect of it. This kind of thing is incredibly destructive to oneself and acting on it is a great way to alienate others and stir up drama. It can ruin your credibility, ensure people never want to help you, and put you on a spiral where you need to keep layering defenses to protect your other defenses protecting your ego, and all of it boils down to irrational fear.

 

If someone tells you "your sprites fucking suck" it's every bit as valid a criticism as "your sprites are bad quality". Do not make it a personal matter, do not attack the words or the person saying it, do not lecture them about being nice, none of these things will help you or them or anything. These are fallacies like any other. Doing this creates problems out of thin air and generates drama that would otherwise not exist. This is no better than plugging your ears and refusing to hear something you don't want to hear while biting back at the same time. If you don't like the way somebody said something, just ignore it. Take the criticism from what they said and use it. Maybe instead, consider if someone used such strong wording, that you should to really reflect on the quality of your work. This would be a constructive way to respond to the situation. Chances are, the person genuinely wants to help you, or is simply indifferent, and by reacting with hostility about things that aren't relevant, you're sending out a signal that says you don't want help. It only takes a bit of horse sense to determine if someone really dislikes you and just wants to attack you.

 

Another important thing to remember that people seem to frequently lose sight of is that human beings have the incredible power to change and improve. If someone tells you your work sucks, this is a prompt to NOT suck, something you have the power to achieve. Someone who is praised for not sucking earned that by using their power to go from suck to not suck. You have the same power. Always keep that in mind.

 

To close this point before moving on to the fangame stuff below, develop self diagnosis. Be able to see the quality of your own work against the totality of potential quality it can have. If you can look at someone else's creation and tell how good it is, you can do the same with yours. Criticism is easier to interpret if you can use your work as a backdrop to place it against. An artist who obsesses with modesty and ignores their own flaws and merits is an artist traveling blind. Getting to your goal will then be a matter of luck.

 

I've been arguing this for a while. Fangaming has no soul anymore.

 

Older fangames felt more like celebrations of the fandom, the ones today seem to be more about reviving it, or about "doing it right". The genesis sonic games are worshiped like the holy bible, we've long since moved into frameworks much more capable than the genesis titles, yet people even to this day are obsessed with their games emulating the ones from the genesis era as if they're inherently superior. The fangaming community long since built up a ridiculous amount of sprites to use, sega themselves as well when they created the 4 GBA titles, yet people insist on creating their own assets from scratch, an endeavor that is almost always paramount to making the actual game.

The Genesis games are worshiped like the holy bible for damn good reasons. Don't pin a debate on that by pretending there's nothing to it.

Opinions shmopinions. The games throughout the series have measurable qualities that validate the notion that the Genesis games are superior in many ways. If this weren't the case, no one would have any room to criticize Sonic 4's physics.

I do not remotely understand your argument about creating original assets. I do not understand why you brought this up at all or how it is in any way a problem. Is it an issue because it makes projects too ambitious? Because it takes too long? Because it can result in games looking worse than the official art? None of these would be valid arguments. An ambitious project is the choice and burden of the creator. The quality is part of the creator's journey to improve. All of it is one's pursuit of a learning experience. This is a good thing. Either way is a good thing because they're different approaches to learning, and focusing on specific things to learn.

 

...In fact, I almost entirely blame SEGA for this. Inspiration has always come from the sonic games, but they've all sucked recently. SEGA doesn't even know what it wants Sonic to be about anymore, and they've regressed so massively on the series that at this point, it's impossible for even the fans to move forward on anything, only nostalgia over the past. 

Your point was golden in that sentence, up until the very end, which makes it a contradiction. You say that modern Sonic games have sucked, yet you say people only draw from the past games out of nostalgia. Okay, it's obviously not just nostalgia if people are avoiding the modern games because they suck. Make up your mind. "Nostalgia" is not an argument because it's speculative, and in many cases, completely false.

 

I half agree with Serephim's sentiments. Sonic fan games should strive to do more than just give us another Sonic 2 clone with the same plot, the same opening green level, the same abilities and nothing more.

 

On the other hand, I feel that in order to go beyond what the Genesis titles were, you have to first match them. You have to understand the fundamentals of what made them work. They need controls that make Sonic and friends feel satisfying to play as. Since the controls in Sonic games are often tied to the slope physics, it's also important to derive the slope physics from the real world physics that inspired the Genesis titles. You already know why this is important just from playing Sonic 4 Episode 1.

Absolutely. Those features are what defined Sonic games. Making a Sonic fangame should adhere to the features that define it officially, unless you're deliberately trying to make something different than a traditional Sonic game and you're just using the Sonic image. It's foolish to ignore the staples and pretend like Sonic fangames are just random games with Sonic's face on them.

 

Okay, what you're saying makes sense. But I totally disagree with the angle here. It's an example of what i'm getting at. I was talking about this in Jass's thread on the subject about recreating Sonic 4. Bottom line, making a "good sonic game", at its core, has noooottthing to do with any of that stuff. It helps, yes, but it's not going to make the game good. All you did was list the things that made Sonic 1 through S&K good titles, the things they didn't screw up on. Making a game good is not a mathematical equation, it's not a checklist. This is why I said it feels like most of you guys are building every fangame off a common rubric. It's this mentality that causes it to happen.

 

Sonic 4 wasn't a bad game because it didn't have roll physics, it was a bad game because its only goal during development was a cheap imitation of the games nobody bitched about. The game had no direction, correcting the roll physics and recompiling that game will never make it good.

Making a good game has nothing to do with that stuff. Making a good Sonic game has a lot to do with that stuff. Duplex is right, those are features that define the Sonic games apart from any other game, and generally it should be where someone starts from in a Sonic fangame effort. It is entirely sensible to prioritize the adherence of those features when making a Sonic fangame, and seeking to idealize them, improve them, or going on a mission to recreate them as faithfully as possible. Wild, silly, or new ideas do not make a good fangame. There's just as much to appreciate in how precise an engine is, or what it manages to accomplish in extrapolating the features of existing Sonic games. This sort of mindset is exactly the right direction a fangaming scene should have; fan, as in, admiration of existing properties, games, as in, making games, fangames, as in, making games based on existing properties. I feel stupid having to explain this. What you're suggesting is that we should drop interest in the features that define Sonic games, and instead make random whatever games that just happen to have Sonic's image slapped on. That isn't a fangame.

By your logic, Mario fangames should ignore things like super mushrooms and stomping on enemies and hitting item blocks and linear platforming, and Mega Man fangames should ignore run and shoot gameplay and boss powers and charge shots and precision platforming. If those features are ignored, they're not fangames anymore, they're just random games with meaningless titles and pictures.

 

Proper physics in Sonic 4 isn't the answer... by itself. Proper physics would be a huge improvement however, because this does have a lot to do with what is needed of another entry in the original Sonic series. There's plenty of other problems that need to be addressed, such as the horrid music, and also what you said about it is true, it had no direction. But at the same time, it failed to adhere to anything in the format of its predecessors. Believe it or not, that's a huge part of what made them what they were, and these things should've been observed in the creation of a Sonic 4. By neglecting all of these things, it failed to be a legitimate Sonic 4.

 

So what i'm saying is, in playing most recent fangames, your main focus being "match the genesis titles" almost immediately sets you up for this. Your idea of matching the genesis titles makes perfect sense, but it also consumes the entire design process of making a fangame. It's no longer created, it's manufactured. The fact that everyone is so critical and concerned about every aspect of their fangame being "right" is the reason why all of them are boring by design. It's no longer about personal enjoyment, nobody is creating what they want, they're creating what they think everyone else wants. It's the reason official sonic games are ass now. Having your game be medicore but fun to experience is better than it being physically perfect yet lifeless. And I don't see how that overreaching mentality is any better for creating legit indie games.

What bugs me so much about this argument is that you say it like people are forced to choose between one or the other. Like, if someone is focusing on technical precision and being faithful to past Sonic games, that this automatically means the game can't be creative or fun, nor can the creator have fun making it. What you're really doing it seems is making an assumption out of bitterness because you have a hard time enjoying the fangames of today. It is certainly possible for a developer to be so engrossed in a specific aspect that they lose sight of other important values. To assume that this is always the case just because the fangame scene found the roots it's been looking for is absurd. Is Overture not enough proof that developers can be passionate and enjoy their work, and make something fun and appealing while also being dedicated to accuracy and faithfulness to Sonic Team's original visions? We have not had to compromise one for the other.

 

You're basically saying that fangames have turned bad because A was sacrificed for B. The solution is not sacrificing B to get A back. The solution is to find an equilibrium and then maximizing both until we have the best of everything. This is a primary challenge we take on together as a fangame community.

 

Honestly, the moment 360 engines became the norm, sonic fangaming died.

You are confusing things together.

The development of 360 engines was a logical step for Sonic fangames. This is when Sonic fangaming became stable. What you call pre-death was essentially a bunch of kids experimenting and goofing off and having fun. And yes, this was lively and entertaining. But it goes without saying that 99% of the fangames back then were unplayable wrecks. It was like a bunch of people planning to build cars and giggling as they smashed a bunch of junk together in trash compactors. Hilarious and fun, but at some point we have to start building a car. Somewhere along the way, the smartest of the bunch started drawing up the blueprints and eventually we finally got a sputtering yet working car. The joy of this achievement inspired everyone to start making the best cars they can. Fast forward a few years and folks are making some pretty good looking cars that drive really well. You look at this like things will never be fun again and the only way they will be is by destroying all the cars we built so we're all back to square one and have no choice but to bash car parts with hammers and all laugh and have a good time.

Fact is, we got that out of our system, so that isn't going to happen again. A lot of us matured and we're taking interest in higher pursuits.

But, it's foolish to think that things will never be fun again. History will repeat, but we'll be that much farther when it does. We'll eventually get close to a singularity where the engines are ideal and we have the best tools and things will become easy enough that we're free to start going crazy experimenting again. When that happens, it will be way more exciting than the days we were throwing tinker toys around. That is why it's best to devote oneself to the path we're on; it's a natural one. You perceive it as a high point that just dropped. If you zoomed out further and looked at the bigger picture, you'd see we're actually on a wave with crests and troughs. We will cycle back to where we were and bring with us everything we learned.

This does not just apply to the Sonic fangame scene by the way, this applies to just about everything. Always look for the bigger picture.

Edited by Mr Lange
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Lange, holy shit, this post. I'm sure glad you're around to make my posts look smaller.

 

 

I do not remotely understand your argument about creating original assets. I do not understand why you brought this up at all or how it is in any way a problem. Is it an issue because it makes projects too ambitious? Because it takes too long? Because it can result in games looking worse than the official art? None of these would be valid arguments. An ambitious project is the choice and burden of the creator.

 

Making the project too ambitious is the argument I lean towards, but i never said original assets are a bad thing, no way. It's an argument I usually make about fangames in response to how frequently they go unfinished. But over the years though I find that there's really not one thing you can blame this on, and like DW pointed out, one act demos are still progressive learning tools. I agree it isn't a very strong argument, and it is on the choice of the creator. It's just an opinion of mine.

 

 

The games throughout the series have measurable qualities that validate the notion that the Genesis games are superior in many ways. 

 

Proper physics in Sonic 4 isn't the answer... by itself. Proper physics would be a huge improvement however, because this does have a lot to do with what is needed of another entry in the original Sonic series. There's plenty of other problems that need to be addressed, such as the horrid music, and also what you said about it is true, it had no direction. But at the same time, it failed to adhere to anything in the format of its predecessors. Believe it or not, that's a huge part of what made them what they were, and these things should've been observed in the creation of a Sonic 4. By neglecting all of these things, it failed to be a legitimate Sonic 4.

 

I never was downplaying the genesis title's design strength. I was pointing out that your fangame taking literally every cue from them is not going to make it an inherently better game. This is why I criticized Sonic 4 on a deeper level than even its engine flaws -- by pointing out that the very concept of the game itself was flawed, which leaked into and influenced every mediocre decision. This is a much greater problem than crappy physics could ever cause. Fixing them wouldn't be a large improvement, the game is built around it, and thus would still be a shitty game. The music was aggravating because instead of trying to sound good, it tried to sound retro. 

 

Ignoring the framework of its predecessors is indeed a pretty terrible offense for a 2D sonic game. But Sonic Rush a was phenomenal 2D sonic game and it had nearly nothing in the scope of proper classic physics. But it was a good game, because it wasn't trying to be reminiscent of Sonic 3 & Knuckles. It was trying to be Sonic Rush, a new exciting sonic game for the DS with 2 screens, where you go fast as fuck by pressing a button.

 

 

 

Your point was golden in that sentence, up until the very end, which makes it a contradiction. You say that modern Sonic games have sucked, yet you say people only draw from the past games out of nostalgia. Okay, it's obviously not just nostalgia if people are avoiding the modern games because they suck. Make up your mind. "Nostalgia" is not an argument because it's speculative, and in many cases, completely false.

 

 

It's not a contradiction, you just misunderstood me. I'm not saying modern games suck and old games are only good because of nostalgia. I'm saying modern games suck because their only focus is to provide nostalgia. It's the same problem above, where the concept behind the game itself just dooms it to be mediocre. And I personally believe, this backlash has leaked into fangames. The newer official games suck, Sega is basically acknowledging that's a fact, but they are still for whatever reason unable or unwilling to fix the problem. They have no clue what Sonic is anymore, only what it's supposed to look like.

 

But sonic fans are actively studying what sonic is supposed to PLAY like, but with no positive present inspiration to feed off of, we now only build towards the past. Thus, every new fangame is a genesis clone, trying to be like a genesis game, with genesis graphics and a genesis storyline. 

 

---

 

Alright, this is alot to reply to, so im going to try to broaden my response a bit.

 

 

What bugs me so much about this argument is that you say it like people are forced to choose between one or the other.

 

This is when Sonic fangaming became stable. What you call pre-death was essentially a bunch of kids experimenting and goofing off and having fun

 

 

Alright. It seems like the real root of our disagreement is coming from the definition of what a sonic fangame even is. You believe it's something that's faithful and respectful to the medium, I believe it's whatever you think would be fun to play that you can convert into a game involving sonic the hedgehog. It ultimately comes down into semantics and opinions, really.

 

 

You don't have to sacrifice quality to make a creative or wacky fangame, and a wacky fangame is not inherently more appealing to me than a series faithful one. You seem to assume i'm saying people should start making SonicxMegaman fangames again, not worry about quality or game design theory in regards to sonic, and revert to static engines. This is totally not the case; my argument is not based on what a fangame looks like, or pulls its features from, or which engine it uses. It's all about what influenced you to start making the fangame in the first place. Which, as you already mentioned, is entirely at the whim of the creator...It's just an observation of mine that current fangames are seemingly biased towards a specific generation of sonic fangames. Which I cannot say happened nearly as much when fangaming was younger. And that is something I attribute to Sonic Team being far more forward looking and progressive with advancing sonic, whereas now Sonic is more about regressing backwards into "what worked", while pulling key design decisions from games that aren't even Sonic games.

 

 

So in a nutshell, i have no problem with people who extensively study the mechanics of the old games, I don't think its a bad thing, i don't think it's a flawed thing, I don't think it's worse than doing random things. But I do COMPLETELY disagree in the belief that a sonic fangame is a such only if certain criteria are met. And i dont care what that criteria is, be it gameplay, graphics, genre, or whether its shit or not. I mean, i guess it has to have sonic characters in it. That's about it.

 

 

As for my sentiments on 360 engines, I've already explained, that's just a personal belief of mine. I do believe that the current 360 engines have provided an amazing, stable tool for creating fangames. But for all of their overwhelming benefits, I also believe the removed limits come at the cost of that experimentation you talked about, because for whatever reason it's just not happening anymore. It's not not not the shitty fangames I miss, it's the mentality that produced them. And I don't think i agree that it was a mentality produced only by our inability to reach the classics, but who knows.

Edited by Serephim
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 And i dont care what that criteria is, be it gameplay, graphics, genre, or whether its shit or not. I mean, i guess it has to have sonic characters in it. That's about it.

 

 

Sonic and Amy's Starlight Date Fangame! Coming soon 2027

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv9s7swLtUk

Edited by ☆PicsAndPixels
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