Jijitsu no Kaze

[TailsSena]

...What's this? A new topic by TS? The Art Forum? And what's that even say?

Well, to tell the truth, this is me announcing my first Indie Game! I'm putting it in the Art Forum because I don't really have any gameplay to show off, just concept art so far. (View all of it here.)

Now, this project I promise I won't abandon like those fangames I only got so far on. I'm still learning coding languages, which is why this isn't going to go much farther for a while... So while I'm doing that, I'll try to keep up some art.

And speaking of art, here's what the box art looks like so far...

That text says "Jijitsu no Kaze," just like this topic's title. I'll leave the translation a mystery for now, though trust me when I say I know damn full well what it means.

So, as for the gameplay style. Well, as far as I've planned, expect the controls to feel like Dissidia as far as button combos go. Physics... Well, I'm not sure on that yet.

Oh, and yes, I'm going to try and make this for the Dreamcast, because it seems a little easier to code for than DirectX or any of that... Though I'll probably make a PC version alongside it, just so nobody bitches about not being able to play it.

Thoughts? ...Constructive thoughts?

[Serephim]

Thoughts? ...Constructive thoughts?

Yes.

1) Indie*

2) Why are you asserting to us that you know what your title means. Keeping the translation of the title of your game a "secret" is a stupid idea. Japanese isn't a madeup language. We went over this with the Puyo game; throwing moonrunes over everything isn't clever or cool or different, it's mostly just obnoxious. It'll be transparent to any native Japanese and annoying to everyone else who isn't a japanophile.

I cannot stress to you enough how stupid it is for an english game to have a Japanese title, furthermore one you refer to out of translation.

3) 1999-2001 was a wonderful year for games, but the Dreamcast itself was a piece of shit, all my PS1 games work perfectly but almost none of my dreamcast shit still reads why on earth do you have ambitions to create a game for one

it was over by the time you were in kindergarden. I mean, sure it's an awesome thing to want to do, but it being a primary platform just...isn't a good idea. You'd honestly be better off developing for the gamecube, at least those are easier to find.

4)

Clay, meet Cray

obvious inspiration or ridiculous coincidence

Looking forward to more stuff though

[TailsSena]

I'll er...try to respond as best I can...

1) Indie*

Oh... Whoops.

2) Why are you asserting to us that you know what your title means. Keeping the translation of the title of your game a "secret" is a stupid idea. Japanese isn't a madeup language. We went over this with the Puyo game; throwing moonrunes over everything isn't clever or cool or different, it's mostly just obnoxious. It'll be transparent to any native Japanese and annoying to everyone else who isn't a japanophile.

I cannot stress to you enough how stupid it is for an english game to have a Japanese title, furthermore one you refer to out of translation.

Yes, yes. It's silly, I know... That said, it's just a developer gag for now. I might replace it with the English at some point, or in the official release, but for now I'll keep it like this.

EDIT: If you want to know, you could always look it up. Be warned though, Google Translate is stupid, and as you may have guessed, it's wrong. (It does get part of it right... part of it.)

3) 1999-2001 was a wonderful year for games, but the Dreamcast itself was a piece of shit, all my PS1 games work perfectly but almost none of my dreamcast shit still reads why on earth do you have ambitions to create a game for one

it was over by the time you were in kindergarden. I mean, sure it's an awesome thing to want to do, but it being a primary platform just...isn't a good idea. You'd honestly be better off developing for the gamecube, at least those are easier to find.

Well, I'm not really looking for a whole lot of graphical finesse, so in reality, the Dreamcast is exactly what I'm looking for. Why not the Gamecube? Harder to emulate, and thus, harder to test. (Though I can emulate it, I just...don't really want to.)

4)

[qimg]http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/120/4/e/r_hia_and_clay_concepts_by_tailssena-d63no13.png[/qimg]

Clay, meet Cray

[qimg]http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-03/art/bof4-cray2.jpg[/qimg]

obvious inspiration or ridiculous coincidence

Obvious inspiration. I may divvy-up the palette later, but if all else fails, his character is still different.

Speaking of which, four of the characters were visually inspired by others, can you spot them? On the same tangent, can you recall the game with box-art that looks very, very similar to this one, as this was based on that game's box-art?

Long story short, I kept my references limited to niches.

Looking forward to more stuff though

Wait, really? That's not the impression I got reading this, but...good to know. Thanks.

[Ristar]

A developer gag? Between who?

Also, why not save yourself a ballache and just develop for PC?

Programming-wise, considering you're just learning, I think you're trying to run before you can crawl. I think you're attempting something way too ambitious.

Your proportions in the artwork are wayyy off, noses are too high, the muscles look like they're made out of balloons, the hairstyles aren't realistic and would be impossible to achieve irl and the whole thing looks way too animé-ish. You need to reference actual human beings and not just other manga/animé artwork if you're wanting to improve. I'd give you some reference sites but I'm on my phone ATM. Google should bring some stuff up though.

[TailsSena]

Your proportions in the artwork are wayyy off, noses are too high, the muscles look like they're made out of balloons, the hairstyles aren't realistic and would be impossible to achieve irl and the whole thing looks way too animé-ish. You need to reference actual human beings and not just other manga/animé artwork if you're wanting to improve. I'd give you some reference sites but I'm on my phone ATM. Google should bring some stuff up though.

Intentional for the 2D art. The models will probably be more realistic.

EDIT: Okay, okay, fine... English for the nay-sayers.

[Ristar]

Intentional for the 2D art. The models will probably be more realistic.

You asked for constructive criticism dude. I'm telling you that the proportions on your artwork are wrong.

And bear in mind that in order to make 3D models you're gonna need some artwork references and goofy references = goofy models.

I'm telling you this as a qualified artist.

[TailsSena]

You asked for constructive criticism dude. I'm telling you that the proportions on your artwork are wrong.

And bear in mind that in order to make 3D models you're gonna need some artwork references and goofy references = goofy models.

I'm telling you this as a qualified artist.

I know, you're right, you're right.

...Actually... What is it you're comparing this to? I, of course, drew this in my own art style, so I doubt it'll match up perfectly with yours. That said, I'm sure I could learn something from analyzing your source material.

[Ristar]

Well you could learn the basic principles of figure drawing.

[TailsSena]

Well you could learn the basic principles of figure drawing.

Really now? Basic principles? I'll admit there are some things that could stand improvement, and I'm willing to do that, but come now..

[ila]

Everyone's face is the same.

[TailsSena]

Everyone's face is the same.

Mm, you're right. That is something I need to work on; variation. I'm so used to drawing males, constantly... (Can you tell I learned my trade from Yaoi artists?)

Because of that, Rosa (centre), Celeste (right), and R'hia (Top) were stuck with relatively masculine features... Thankfully, Rosa was mostly spared by looking so youthful. R'hia was intentional. Celeste, on the other hand... I need to...patch her up a bit.

And Roy (below Celeste), his chin is odd...

Okay, while I'm at it, I might as well divulge everyone's names.

Centre - Rosa

Clockwise, from top - R'hia, Tobio, Celeste, Roy, Lunick, Matthew, Clay, Lucas, and Tanner.

[Ristar]

Really now? Basic principles? I'll admit there are some things that could stand improvement, and I'm willing to do that, but come now..

You could improve on just about everything, hence why I tried to give to constructive criticism which you didn't bother taking on board.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_drawing

http://learninganatomy.tumblr.com/

[Carl Winslow]

I was gonna hold off posting when I first saw this cuz I would have been rude as all hell but I'm glad everyone else has said the same things I would have!

But yes, this is pretty awful, you have a long way to go before you start trying to do anything fancy

[TailsSena]

You could improve on just about everything, hence why I tried to give to constructive criticism which you didn't bother taking on board.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_drawing

http://learninganatomy.tumblr.com/

Mm. Fine, I'll read the wiki, and check out the tumblr when I get home. Thank you.

Now listen, the reason I couldn't take your word for anything was because you failed spectacularly and completely at telling me what I did right. (I hate to sound haughty, but there has to be something that, at the very least, I didn't fail at.) Usually, when critiquing art, one tells another what they succeeded at, what the viewer liked about the piece, and then they move on to what may need improvement.

As a "qualified artist," you really should know the "basic principles" of critiquing etiquette.

[TailsSena]

I was gonna hold off posting when I first saw this cuz I would have been rude as all hell but I'm glad everyone else has said the same things I would have!

But yes, this is pretty awful, you have a long way to go before you start trying to do anything fancy

Well, I appreciate your chivalry on the matter.

[Ristar]

Mm. Fine, I'll read the wiki, and check out the tumblr when I get home. Thank you.

Now listen, the reason I couldn't take your word for anything was because you failed spectacularly and completely at telling me what I did right. (I hate to sound haughty, but there has to be something that, at the very least, I didn't fail at.) Usually, when critiquing art, one tells another what they succeeded at, what the viewer liked about the piece, and then they move on to what may need improvement.

As a "qualified artist," you really should know the "basic principles" of critiquing etiquette.

As a qualified artist, i know how to take criticism and learn to accept and overcome my weaknesses without whining because someone didn't compliment my work.

As for my etiquette, at no point did I insult your art. I told you what was off/wrong with your artwork, why it was wrong and how you could improve. I was somewhat annoyed because your original post did a bit of a no-no in the art world by alienating your audience (i.e. "I know japanese so I know what this means and you don't and I won't tell you"). I've hung around with professional artists, artist friends and on art forums in the past and I know all about "etiquette".

Bad "etiquette" is acting like a total ballsack by completely ignoring valid criticism from someone who has a pretty good idea what they're talking about; just because they didn't compliment your work.

[TailsSena]

As a qualified artist, i know how to take criticism and learn to accept and overcome my weaknesses without whining because someone didn't compliment my work.

As for my etiquette, at no point did I insult your art. I told you what was off/wrong with your artwork, why it was wrong and how you could improve. I've hung around on art forums in the past and I know all about "etiquette".

Bad "etiquette" is acting like a total ballsack by completely ignoring valid criticism from someone who has a pretty good idea what they're talking about; just because they didn't compliment your work.

...I concede defeat.

Now... "Everything is wrong" is a pretty broad statement, and one I have trouble believing. Be specific, please... What all is really wrong, bearing in mind that we have probably have entirely different styles. Mine is very Anime-ish, and from your remarks, I can only gather that yours is somehow more...refined. "Hyper-realistic," if you will.

List of critiques:

- Chins

- Differentiation of faces

- Nose height

- Muscles are rounded. (That might not need fixing.)

- Hair isn't rooted firmly in reality. (Tha~t's not really so bad.)

- Shading to be done.

Anything else?

[Ristar]

nope, I'm a painter and my art style tends to be quite loose and colourful (think Paul Cezanne/Lucien Freud) but I have a basic understanding of the human form by referencing photos and live models.

I never said "everything is wrong", I said you could improve on just about everything, which I still stand by.

Style really doesn't come into it at this point, your artwork suggests that you have a limited understanding of anatomy. I could tell that no matter what art style you have; and by using "style" as an excuse to not improve your understanding of form, you're doing yourself a disservice.

At this early stage the hair DOES need to be firmly rooted in reality. You're drawing humans so their hair should grow like a human's hair.

Your biggest problem is you THINK you know what a human looks like but you're not LOOKING and SEEING the human form.

Final protip: DO NOT REFERENCE ANIME/MANGA/COMICS/OTHER NON-SCIENTIFIC DRAWINGS if you want to improve.

[TailsSena]

Hmm... I'll see what I can do. So should I try to edit this, or would it be best to start over on paper? I'm leaning toward the latter, and it might actually be easier. What do you think?

[Serephim]

This is the thing about DeviantArt vs communities like this one. You should thank the fuck out of Ristar, because this is the kind of feedback you would never get from your circle of DA friends. I'm sure most artists go through this phase, so i can personally advise from experience. Style is NOT a valid defense. Manga artists did not take a different path to learning than other artists or cartoonists. They are not a get-out-of-learning free card. If you ever want to improve you WILL end up drawing stuff that isn't Kingdom Hearts or Yaoi shit.

1) Ila is correct. Everyone has the same face. This is because your faces are too simplistic to support any sort of diversity. Furthermore, the disregard for facial features pretty much prevents you from having more than 3 or 4 expressions on your characters. The most generic anime face usually sets faces apart by changing up hair style and color, eye shape, nose/mouth size ect. Yours can't even do this.

2) Your body shapes seem to abuse this thick balloon look to avoid actually having to draw muscles and joints. This also leads to every character having the same body.

3) On top of that, your proportions are quite incorrect. One COULD use style to defend this, but this has everything to do with the way you go about drawing humans. Your characters seem to be built around their clothing, and it should be the other way around. It's the same way with your faces. The heads of your characters aren't heads, they're just canvases for you to draw faces and hair on top of. As a result, all the proportions of your characters fluctuate wildly, and almost none of them are correct.

This isn't about what you did "right". In a manner of speaking, nothing is right. If you tried to make a model out of these you would get your ass kicked, and then something worse if you ever tried to animate them. This is really the danger of trying to reference Manga. You're focusing way too much on the appearance of an image instead of the physical form of what you're attempting to draw. You are emulating 2D image, not creating a scene with depth. The moment you realize and attempt to grow past this, you'll start to see how limiting and crippling your original approach to art was.

But the thing to take from this is, you are extremely lucky to have done this. You can run back to DeviantArt and continue the positive feedback loop of doom, or you can listen to people like Ristar and get some real advice for an early start to real improvement. Trust me when i say, you are not ready to do anything serious with your current level of art experience.

[Geckoroverse]

You're focusing way too much on the appearance of an image instead of the physical form of what you're attempting to draw. You are emulating 2D image, not creating a scene with depth. The moment you realize and attempt to grow past this, you'll start to see how limiting and crippling your original approach to art was.

This. Thanks to studying real life and discovering the studies of artists like John Kricfalusi and the like, in the span of a year I went from drawing flat without construction and other such crap to making my character out of three-dimensional forms, constructed and designed in such a way to make them easier to animate and pose, and more likely to come out better in three-dimensional CG forms and stuff. And I'm still learnin' more and more each day. :3

Harsh as it may be, take these criticisms and take 'em to heart! You'll learn somethin', even if it takes a while, trust me.

[TailsSena]

Hmm...~ ...Yes... Yes, that's right...

Oh, dearie... You're right, all fou-- five of you, actually!~

Alright, I'm totally going to redraw this some time in the future! Though not right now, practice first.

It's never going to be super realistic, that defeats the point, but if I can make it look better, more varied, and perhaps even more believable... That should be my goal.

...Faces... Guh, they're almost as annoying as hands. Wait, I take it back, they're more obnoxious. Proof I need to practice more.

[ZigZaX]

Faces get fun to do once you learn to make them. And Look at Rawr in this same forrum, his/her style is very stylized, and not excacly realistic, but it's still great art because you can tell what is what, and it flows, it FEELS right...sorry if i'm beating a dead horse by now.

[TailsSena]

Faces get fun to do once you learn to make them. And Look at Rawr in this same forrum, his/her style is very stylized, and not excacly realistic, but it's still great art because you can tell what is what, and it flows, it FEELS right...sorry if i'm beating a dead horse by now.

Yes, that was a little bit of "dead horse beating," but I get your point. I've seen much of Rawr's art, it's phenomenal. I look everywhere and I see people better than me. I'm not afraid to admit that.

The cause for grief earlier was that it sounded like you were telling me that absolutely everything about the piece was completely wrong... That it looked like absolute, bottom of the barrel shit.

I know better now. You simply meant that it's...immature... I've still got a long way to go before I can compare to my idols.

[ZigZaX]

Sowee